My folly - supercharged megasquirt 2L TC or die trying

[timinator]

This would be a good time to determine the criteria for your project. It is very hard to hit a moving target.

Turbo boost at 1800rpm on a 1.8-2l engine is not usually done. Blowers on same are equipped with magnetic drive hubs to decouple under certain driving conditions.

Proper matching of components in a system is fundamental. Mitsu GT 3000s used dual intercoolers for drivability reasons. Makes sense 2x the intercooler volume could present problems.

Dual edis would not be required for engines operating in the low rpm range you seem to be indicating.

[TimpanogosSlim]

This would be a good time to determine the criteria for your project. It is very hard to hit a moving target.

Turbo boost at 1800rpm on a 1.8-2l engine is not usually done. Blowers on same are equipped with magnetic drive hubs to decouple under certain driving conditions.

Proper matching of components in a system is fundamental. Mitsu GT 3000s used dual intercoolers for drivability reasons. Makes sense 2x the intercooler volume could present problems.

Dual edis would not be required for engines operating in the low rpm range you seem to be indicating.

Project cars are always a moving target, no? It seems inevitable that the spec will evolve over time. I also don't expect to have a running motor in the next 12 months.

I have a friend who is just now selling a 1985 Golf he has owned for more than 10 years, which he has installed 5 different engines in. It currently contains an Audi 1.8T with a big turbo coupled to a diesel-spec (taller gearing) manual transmission. Granted, he's the lead tech at a shop so he has a lot of experience and tools at the ready. It's absurdly quick and really needs sticky tires and an LSD before you could really race it.

the SC-14 I am currently considering generally has a magnetic clutch. i'll be doing more research before i actually buy a supercharger of course.

bursting above 7000rpm is low? ok.

[TimpanogosSlim]

Looks like Ford / Motocraft DG-508 coil packs aka "mustang coil packs" (because "F-150 coil packs" doesn't sound as cool) have an angled profile that will allow #4 to clear the firewall and makes the mounting bracket easy. And it appears that EDIS will drive them.

http://turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10386

http://www.crownvic.net/drock96marquis/COPconv.htm

[timinator]

bursting above 7000rpm is low? ok.

Not aware of blowers that can be driven at enough rpm to provide boost at 1800 engine rpm and continue without surge through to 7000rpm. Ford SC 3.8l peak hp @ 4400rpm tq @2500 rpm more or less same for Buick.

Yes 7000rpm is low. Stock Hondas B -16 R 8200rpm, S2000 9200rpm. I build Mini Stock Ford 2.3l And Toyota 2.4l with stock ignitions that race at 7500rpm, but can turn 8000rpm.

Mark's ignition is good to something like 12000rpm.

[TimpanogosSlim]

bursting above 7000rpm is low? ok.

Not aware of blowers that can be driven at enough rpm to provide boost at 1800 engine rpm and continue without surge through to 7000rpm. Ford SC 3.8l peak hp @ 4400rpm tq @2500 rpm more or less same for Buick.

Yes 7000rpm is low. Stock Hondas B -16 R 8200rpm, S2000 9200rpm. I build Mini Stock Ford 2.3l And Toyota 2.4l with stock ignitions that race at 7500rpm, but can turn 8000rpm.

Mark's ignition is good to something like 12000rpm.

I'm sure mark's ignition is excellent but my rule here is commodity not specialty.

SC-14 moves ~1400cc per rotation, max recommended rotation of ~12000rpm no i haven't done the math yet.

EDIS is good to 9000rpm iirc.

[timinator]

Been reading about the 1GGZE 6cyl. 24v engine the sc14 comes from. 168hp@6000 167tq@3600. Sounds like a good supercharger for you app. Read they are engaged at 2000rpm and put out .7bar in stock form with intercooling. Is that what you have read? Can't wait to hear about your build as it progresses.

[TimpanogosSlim]

yeah that's basically what I've seen.

They were also coupled to the 2TZ-FZE 2.4L I4 in 1994-1997 Previa minivans. car-part.com indicates that i can get a 2nd hand unit for anywhere from $150 on up. That'd be sight unseen though. I'd rather find one at a local wrecker and get it with the factory plumbing & recirc valve. I've been assured that rebuild kits are cheap and easy to implement. But i haven't verified that yet.

I need to actually sit down and do the math to determine the ideal pulley sizes, etc.

[DieselSpider]

I have a vague recollection of Gayle Banks have made some small blowers for 2 liter engines in the past. For the Dodge Caravan's and Omni's perhaps.

[TimpanogosSlim]

Looks like the original l-jet injectors will work but won't spray enough fuel for 150hp, seems they are around 170cc injectors and the sweet spot is going to be 250ish, not more than 300cc probably, unless i want to add a variable fuel pressure regulator to the mix, and i do not.

The problem here is not finding an injector that will work, it's finding a specific injector that would work excellently and has a good price/performance ratio. I like to be able to narrow down to a single part or small group of parts.

with MS you can vary the duration of the spray up to 25.5ms so there are dozens of injector models that can be made to work. Bosch injectors with tube top inlet are easiest to use, damn near anything can be made to work including several denso injectors. injectors with o-rings on both ends can still have a hose fitted over them, after all.

This is looking like something where i spend some time at the yards looking for something that will fit the bill, and then buy 6 of them to clean and test.

Yeah junk yard parts. Because $45/ea for vintage injectors is for the birds.

[burgandy81]

I'm sure mark's ignition is excellent but my rule here is commodity not specialty.

SC-14 moves ~1400cc per rotation, max recommended rotation of ~12000rpm no i haven't done the math yet.

I have also read this and am planning on using and Eaton M90 from the Ford Super Coupe. The M90 moves 1490cc per rotation and is VERY cheap, robust and easy to rebuild (so says the internet). The down sides are a relatively long drive snout and a non-integrated bypass. The Ford SC piping does include a TB, bypass and IC that may be useful if purchased as an assembly.

[TimpanogosSlim]

SC-14 moves ~1400cc per rotation, max recommended rotation of ~12000rpm no i haven't done the math yet.

I have also read this and am planning on using and Eaton M90 from the Ford Super Coupe. The M90 moves 1490cc per rotation and is VERY cheap, robust and easy to rebuild (so says the internet). The down sides are a relatively long drive snout and a non-integrated bypass. The Ford SC piping does include a TB, bypass and IC that may be useful if purchased as an assembly.

This idea has some real merit. Since it's from a domestic sports car it seems to be easier to find rebuilt, and easier to find parts for, than the previa charger. There is also a lot more information about it in english.

car-part.com indicates that there are a lot less of them for sale from scrappers, and it appears to be more expensive than the toyota charger. But it's weird, maybe there is just some "sports car" price inflation from some yards. $200 to $1k listed price.

But there are rebuilt units for $500 with 2 year warranty and rebuild kits around $100 inclusive of all wear parts, lubricants, and sealants.

It appears that there is a Jaguar version of the M90 with a shorter snout but of course the jag version is way more expensive and it's not clear whether the snout exchanges, were you able to find parts.

It's already got that tiny pulley on the snout - does it have a clutch?

[TimpanogosSlim]

Some random thoughts. Yes I'm using the forum as a scratchpad.

It's probably prudent to start small. Say, naturally aspirated, stock injectors, original distributor, megasquirt, MAP sensor, wideband o2, TPS, temperature sensors. Apply the map from a linked thread above that closely matches the factory original NA tuning.

Then convert to distributorless and verify running condition.

Then install bigger injectors, retune for new injectors, verify running condition.

Then start tackling forced induction.

To this end, I'll probably end up building an engine run stand. It will be a LOT easier to fab mounts outside of the car.

Of course, I'll have to be careful about it being too easy. I learned my lesson cheaply with my turbo diesel conversion. I had a really slick, gently curved, large diameter oil dran from turbo to pan. Looked like a fantastic idea on the engine stand.

As soon as i went to reinstall the axles in the jetta, I realized that i had run the oil drain pretty much exactly where the passenger side axle wants to be.

Set me back a couple weeks as i devised a plan, bought fittings, etc. I got off light. It was my only "Well that's just not gonna work" moment that brought a full stop to the project. Aside from running hot piped until i figure out exactly how to fit and plumb an intercooler, and just which intercooler that might be.

It'd be a lot worse to discover that my SC or plumbing needs me to beat a big dent into the inner fender.

so maybe i work out how to simulate the cramped conditions of the actual engine compartment. Take some measurements and cut some pieces of masonite or something that can be fitted.

Did i mention i have no garage? my shed is going to have to get a lot more functional.

[bradartigue]

I think you are all being Benny Wong'd.

[burgandy81]

This idea has some real merit. Since it's from a domestic sports car it seems to be easier to find rebuilt, and easier to find parts for, than the previa charger. There is also a lot more information about it in english.

Yes. Lots of web fodder in English. I found this to be nicely detailed and inspirational. http://www.miataturbo.net/build-threads ... ing-60073/

car-part.com indicates that there are a lot less of them for sale from scrappers, and it appears to be more expensive than the toyota charger. But it's weird, maybe there is just some "sports car" price inflation from some yards. $200 to $1k listed price.

But there are rebuilt units for $500 with 2 year warranty and rebuild kits around $100 inclusive of all wear parts, lubricants, and sealants.

I would watch CL in your area. I bought my last M90 from a guy with a Super Coupe and far too many spare parts (according to his wife). The blower, IC, IC piping, TB and a small jar of SC oil were $75. This not typical as he was basically giving it away to an enthusiast. I would think $350 would get you what you need.

It's probably prudent to start small. Say, naturally aspirated, stock injectors, original distributor, megasquirt, MAP sensor, wideband o2, TPS, temperature sensors. Apply the map from a linked thread above that closely matches the factory original NA tuning.

Then convert to distributorless and verify running condition.

Then install bigger injectors, retune for new injectors, verify running condition.

Then start tackling forced induction.

To this end, I'll probably end up building an engine run stand. It will be a LOT easier to fab mounts outside of the car.

Good approach. It is what I have done and it allows me to enjoy the car without completing the project. I would think you could install the MS on a running car and be back on the road in a couple of weeks of evenings.

Of course, I'll have to be careful about it being too easy. I learned my lesson cheaply with my turbo diesel conversion. I had a really slick, gently curved, large diameter oil dran from turbo to pan. Looked like a fantastic idea on the engine stand.

As stated the MS is in my car and running with larger injectors, new manifold etc. I have an engine on a stand for fabrication of mounting brackets. I just bought a welder so I may even get to this soon! Hopefully with an engine on a stand for mock up and fitting AND a complete car for reference and measurements I wont make too many catastrophic mistakes.

[TimpanogosSlim]

I would watch CL in your area. I bought my last M90 from a guy with a Super Coupe and far too many spare parts (according to his wife). The blower, IC, IC piping, TB and a small jar of SC oil were $75. This not typical as he was basically giving it away to an enthusiast. I would think $350 would get you what you need.

Yeah, good idea there too. Craigslist in the utah/idaho region sort of takes a back seat to KSL Classifieds. We weren't cool enough for Mr. Numark until well after the tv news people's free classifieds site was entrenched. So, I'll try and troll both.

Currently someone is offering a charger from a wrecked mini, but it's probably undersized for the job and they were asking $400 anyway.

Good approach. It is what I have done and it allows me to enjoy the car without completing the project. I would think you could install the MS on a running car and be back on the road in a couple of weeks of evenings.

Sadly my car is a parallel project. the brakes are completely shot and every wearable part in the suspension other than the shocks needs to be replaced. And I'm not sure about the shocks. But the old 1.8 turned over and ran for a minute or so last year. I would have run it longer but the cooling system wasn't hooked up. I still need to get the radiator to a repair shop.


Injectors - it looks like BMW blue tops might be a good pick. These are roughly 300cc at 4 bar iirc. o-ring tail instead of hose tail but it looks like making a fuel rail for that is surprisingly easy and economical.

There are D-shaped extrusions with enough meat on the flat side that you can basically just drill holes positioned and sized for the tails, tap and thread in fittings on the ends, and work out a way to fix it to the intake plenum. Enough extrusion for the I4 can be had for $<30ish. Just need access to a drill press, the right size bits, and some cutting fluid. I use A9 - works like a charm and smells exactly like cinnamon buns with cream cheese frosting.

It seems the hard part is getting the holes exactly positioned, but it's still easier than welding on bungs.

Anyway, I have plenty of bimmerhead friends who can loan me injectors for a test fit. May even have spare blue tops rolling around that i can just buy from them. There's also enough BMW vehicles going through the self-serve yards that it shouldn't be difficult to get some pigtails to build a good harness.

VW/Audi 1.8T (98-2005, not the new TFSI) injectors are in the right range too, and there is certainly no shortage of those. I'm certain i have friends who have a few rolling around the workbench. In either case, the behavior of either of these injectors is surely well known within the MS community, which is a bonus.

Per Brad's excellent L-Jet guide, the stock fuel pressure regulator is referenced to manifold vacuum. So it looks like I'll be looking for a static 4 bar regulator. And a matching fuel pump, since i currently have no EFI spider body to put this in.

Since i generally see a regulator right on the fuel rail, I'm presuming that this is the preferred location.

The cold start enrichment injector is rendered superfluous by MS so perhaps this is a good spot for the MAP or IAT sensor. Perhaps a job for the weekend is getting the intake parts cleaned up and taking some measurements.

Supposed to be dry and in the high 50's on saturday and sunday. Might make it out to the yards and start pulling sensors and pigtails.

I need to create a section in google drive to store and share digital assets related to this effort. Things have a way of disappearing from forums. Heck, there's at least one DIY EFI related site i've run across in google who's domain forwards to adult friend finder.