Crazy Question

[dreavis]

I'm having trouble with my turn signals and have been reading all the pots on the electrical issues with the Spider. My crazy question is, how much would it cost to hire a professional to completely rewire the car? That would include relays, fuse box, light fixtures, etc.

I'm not think of doing this, but with all the problems people have I had to wonder. Any guesses?

[baltobernie]

Not a crazy question, but more info is needed to avoid a crazy answer.

What are your intentions for the car, short- and long-term? What is the overall condition of the car, as an objective expert would describe it?

Where is the car located? Some of us live in areas where periodic safety inspections are not required, and a car that sees limited use can get away with a few electrical issues. Others must have every light (and many other items) functioning perfectly at every annual inspection.

There are a few other minor questions, such as EFI or carb, etc., but I would estimate that a pro would take 40-50 hours to remove and replace the Spider electrics with a modern wiring harness. Perhaps 30 hours to remove and replace with a good salvaged Spider harness. Maybe $3000 for new, $2000 for used, parts and labor. Not including "mission creep", which can be insidious

Only you can decide if $2000-$3000 to repair/replace one system on the car is a wise expenditure. Notice I did not use the word "investment", because there is no such thing in Fiat-speak. But really ... I see guys spend this much on cosmetics but are afraid to take the car on a trip

[dreavis]

Like I mentioned, not considering it, but very curious. For whatever reason I thought it would be $500-100 less than your estimate, but again, I know absolutely nothing about it. Just a wild guess on my part...which is why I am curious to hear from people like you who know what they are talking about.
I've learned a lot from the forum already and always appreciate the information.
Thanks

[adrians]

I believe ITA124 here on the forum installed a 'Painless Harness' in his Spider, perhap he can answer the query.

http://www.painlessperformance.com/

[narfire]

Personally I like the original wiring...for the most part. The colour coded wires and Brad's electrical download schematics for the year required do make the evolution of sorting out electrical issues not that bad.
http://www.artigue.com/fiat/
I ,like many here, are very thankful brad has made these available to help us with these sometimes finicky little cars.
Chris

[707kevin]

Get the Wiring Diagrams from Brads website http://www.artigue.com/fiat/
Read up on how turn signals work http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turn-signal.htm

These electrical systems are basic. They use simple connectors that are easy to repair (very easy to pop out individual spade connections and replace & clean if needed) There isn't anything complex going on in the wiring, the worst is runs of ground or 12v that jump from one plug to another, but that's normal to any car, and it's pretty clear in the diagrams.

Go through the diagrams and with a sharpie, label your cars connectors to match the number on the diagram. Makes it really easy to find what you need without double checking every time.

The signals are easy to troubleshoot and fix.

Start from the battery and test each step of the way until you find the failure.
Battery -> Ignition Switch -> Fuse -> Hazard Switch -> Signal Flasher -> Signal Switch -> Left or Right bulbs -> Ground.

A lot of people forget that power for the turn signal flashers goes through the hazard switch first, and stops at the hazard switch if it is broken or turned on. Make sure 12v goes to the hazard switch, and from the hazard switch to the signal flasher under the dash. Use a test light or multimeter.

Test the signal flasher. Bypass the signal flasher to make sure it's not bad. On the signal flasher connector, jump the 12v wire to the other two wires. Your turn signals should work on-or-off without blinking as you switch the lever left to right.

[btoran]

although not mentioned in any responses here, plenty of other posts recommend cleaning up all grounds. i know it helped with some issues i was having. not only can the grounds get dirty/corroded with use and over time, but they also get painted over.

[baltobernie]

These electrical systems are basic. ... There isn't anything complex going on in the wiring ...

I disagree. The Fiat electrical system is much more complex than American cars of the same era, and has IMO a number of design flaws. Headlamp and other unnecessary ignition switch loads cause premature switch failure, for example. A properly wired car should not need additional relays, which introduce another potential failure point in that circuit.

Read up on how turn signals work http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turn-signal.htm

Not even remotely similar to the Fiat design, which has five wires entering and exiting the hazard switch, including wires to the courtesy lamp and cigar lighter. "howstuffworks" link is typical of American auto design, as well as the Painless aftermarket harness.

My Reply to the OP offered two suggestions. I've previously stated that an OE harness in good condition is adequate for many owners. I continue to support this position, but so many cars have butchered and jumpered wiring that it may be in the owner's best interest to rewire the car. If his Spider is a "driver", and he doesn't often drive at night or in the rain, he can very likely get away with a stock harness in fair condition. Thirteen volts and a good ground path will make an old car look like new. I continually get positive comments about my exterior lighting from other owners who've happened to see my car in tandem with other Spiders, both "early" and "late".

[707kevin]

I disagree. The Fiat electrical system is much more complex than American cars of the same era, and has IMO a number of design flaws. Headlamp and other unnecessary ignition switch loads cause premature switch failure, for example. A properly wired car should not need additional relays, which introduce another potential failure point in that circuit.

The flaws of the system don't make it more or less complex. That's another issue entirely. The wiring is pretty simple compared to most German and Japanese car's I've dealt with. The OP stated he had turn signal issues, and indicated he wanted to replace the entire wiring system. That's just plain silly.

Not even remotely similar to the Fiat design, which has five wires entering and exiting the hazard switch, including wires to the courtesy lamp and cigar lighter. "howstuffworks" link is typical of American auto design, as well as the Painless aftermarket harness.

Where and how the turn signal circuit gets it's power doesn't change how the signal circuit works on a fundamental level, and I also explicitly stated that the turn signal circuit is powered form the hazard switch, and how to bypass it for testing.

My Reply to the OP offered two suggestions. I've previously stated that an OE harness in good condition is adequate for many owners. I continue to support this position, but so many cars have butchered and jumpered wiring that it may be in the owner's best interest to rewire the car. If his Spider is a "driver", and he doesn't often drive at night or in the rain, he can very likely get away with a stock harness in fair condition. Thirteen volts and a good ground path will make an old car look like new. I continually get positive comments about my exterior lighting from other owners who've happened to see my car in tandem with other Spiders, both "early" and "late".

I can agree with most of that. HOwever, I'm not sure we know enough of the condition of the OP's wiring harness to make this determination. I believe the Fiat wiring is basic enough, simple enough, and easy enough to work on to warrent fixing the issues and design flaws rather than tearing it out and starting over, in MOST cases.

[Ptoneill]

I took out my OEM system and am putting in an ISIS ( infinity box) system. Unlike older systems it uses a ground activated switch signal to a control module that then let's the power module in the front or back apply power, very similar to systems in modern cars. I should have the components by the end of the week.

Be advised that most electronics technician's charge a min of 75-100 dollars per actual work hr. I worked as an electronics tech for the commercial fishing fleet installing wheel house electronics. There is nothing about a car electrical system that a layman cannot learn, however I agree with the other members....if your system is shot....replace it, if you are just having minor problems...troubleshoot and repair it!

[baltobernie]

You're a braver man than I! (You're also a lot smarter, if you are doing marine electronics for a living ) You should see what I had to go through to equip a modern car with automatic DRL . The Body Control Module fought me at every turn. AFTER I spent way too many hours on the project, a buddy said, "You should have asked if that car had been sold in Canada. There was probably an OEM P&P module."

The ISIS system is pretty clever. Probably uses off-the-shelf CAN buss components.

Please post your completed ISIS conversion when completed. I've had a few folks download my Painless conversion suggestions, so the forum will have Brad's OEM info all the way to your 21st century solution.

[707kevin]

ISIS Infinity box looks like a very clever product indeed! Of course once I shoose all the modules I wanted, the system costs nearly twice what I paid for the spider

I may go with arduino one day to piggyback off all of the senders for datalogging and onscreen (tablet/phone) charting of water, oil, exhaust temps, rpm, and afr. The middle section of the dash seems perfectly suited for a 7" tablet dock.

dreavis, let us know how it goes and what you decide!

[Ptoneill]

You're a braver man than I! (You're also a lot smarter, if you are doing marine electronics for a living

12v is 12v, the boats just have a lot more of it. I was fortunate in that I learned electronics while in the Navy, I was an ET ( electronics tech ) on submarines.

The Isis system does use CAN busses to connect the power control modules to the master control module.


Dreavis don't be intimidated by these cars the systems are fairly straight forward. There are some quirks but feel free to ask about them in the forum. I doubt that you will come across a problem that someone has not come up with a fix for, Lord knows I have tried !!!

Good luck!

[dreavis]

Really great information from everyone, thanks.

My 77 currently only has one electrical problem - turn signals/hazards - which I am currently solving by extending my left arm out of the car to indicate my next move. I'll probably try and tackle the issue this weekend.

My initial post was really more of a "hmm...I wonder" kind of a thought and I figured people on the forum would have answers -which of course you do.

[DieselSpider]

The biggest problem is not the Fiat electrical system its the near to 40 years of Rube Goldberg solutions previous owners have implemented to resolve simple problems that complicate matters.

No they were not called Spiders because of the web of wires leading all over the place.