Car not starting

[BakersChoice]

Hello all, this is my first post here and am hoping to get some help.

Just as a bit of background:

I own a 1981 FI Spider and recently had a bit of a disaster. My double relay caught on fire on the fuel injector side and melted not only that half of the double relay, but also a lot of wiring. I got home from work and the car had been sitting for a few hours when the neighbors ran up and let me know my car was on fire . After putting out the fire and assessing the damage, I ordered a new relay and set about fixing the wiring, splicing extensions since the majority of the wires were now severely shortened, and re-wiring the double relay.

I have the double relay re-wired, and am fairly certain that each wire is where they should be going. I marked the wires before cutting and am currently using a multi-meter to double check everything. However, after wiring everything back up into the double relay, I can't get the car to start. I have no click coming out of the starter, even though it has 12 volts at it's connection on the starter, and on the red and black and wire on the double relay.

I have been following a list of diagnostics which I found here...http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/fits/index.html#ljetguide, but am running into troubles. Mainly, when I hook up my test light between 86a and 85, I get 12v across with the key in the "on" position, but lose the 12v in the "start" position, which is opposite. Also, when hooking up terminals 88z and 85 with the test light, I don't get 12v across, but connecting 88z to ground gives me the 12v across. Same thing with the pink and black wire, (terminal 86c I believe). So I hooked up my test light to terminal 85 and ground, to see if it was getting 12v, and the light did not come on. So somehow power is getting re-directed through the double relay in a way in which it shouldn't. I know I need to triple check the wiring at the double relay but if anyone had any other suggestions that would be awesome.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to be as detailed as possible, thanks for the help.

[bradartigue]

Well a relay fire is a new one. Do you have the wiring diagrams (I assume you do) - http://www.artigue.com/fiat - I have them all. There is also a FIAT specific diagnostics manual, do you have that?

There is an inline fuse to the FI system, it is not in the fuse box, it may blown and causing you some problems.

[BakersChoice]

I don't own the diagnostic manual but I pulled what I can from online through Thad's Fiat Pages and I do have the wiring diagrams. We were patching up rust holes in the floor pan to get the car ready for winter and I think the metal shavings from cutting the metal may have gotten into the back of the double relay and caused some issues.

For the inline fuse, are you talking about the inline fuse for the brown/white wire? I've checked that the fuse between the brown/white wire is good.

[spider2081]

I would begin by trying to find out why the cars starter does not click.
You might check for power going into the ignition switch on the brown wire of C31 the ignition switch connector. Then check for power coming out of the ignition switch on the red wire when the ignition switch is being rotated to the start position. You could use your trouble light for these tests.
If the light stays lit in the start position of the red wire then move the trouble light to the red wire at the starter solenoid, leave the red wire connected and connect the trouble light to the terminal, you may need another person to rotate the ignition switch to the "start" position. If the light does not light check C6 the single bullet red wire connector located behind the alternator on the drivers fender well.

Hope this helps

[BakersChoice]

Awesome, thank you for the help. I will check it tomorrow and report back.

[BakersChoice]

Ok, so went through the checks and here is what I got.

With the test light hooked up between the brown and red wire at the ignition switch:

Test light came on with the key in the "on" position. When I put the key in the start position, the test light did not turn on.

With the red wire hooked directly to ground:

I put the key in the "on" position. No light. I then put the key in the "start" position, and the test light came on.

I isolated the red wire by pulling it from the back of the ignition switch and then performed the test again, to see if it wasn't shorting out against a positive from somewhere else, I didn't think it was but you never know. The red wire wasn't picking up any power so it has to be something to do with the ignition switch. I'm also going to double check the back of the fuse panel and make sure everything is where it's supposed to be. I had to pull wires to clean up a little bit of residue from the fire extinguisher.

[spider2081]

Using A test light, I would connect the test clip to a good ground. Then the probe of the light connects to the red wire either at C31 or the back of the ignition switch. If the light lights in the "start" position of the ignition switch the ignition switch is most likely good.
Then move to the engine compartment and connect the clip to a good ground. Connect the probe to the red wire on the starter solenoid while it is connected to the starter. Have someone turn the ignition switch to "start" The light should light and the starter should work.

[BakersChoice]

Thanks for the help, will check tomorrow and report back.

[toplessexpat]

I wonder if there's something awry in the AFM.

*If* the AFM had been tinkered with and was energizing the relay that *might* have caused the initial fire. The heat conduction *could* have traversed back to the AFM and caused some damage inside there. I'd take a peek inside and check that all is working right. Does the contact at the front end of the AFM (towards the front of the car) make contact/move/not look like a burnt out ball of wax etc.?

Just an idea.

Similarly, is there spark? Are the injectors firing (use a Noid light to check). Fuel+air+spark= ignition.... If all those appear ok, I'd take a look at the ignition module.

Could be wide of base here - but worth a look.

A

[BakersChoice]

Well right now the fuel pump isn't coming on at all, even with the ignition in the "on" position and the AFM manually opened. Earlier when I had it wired wrong the fuel pump was buzzing with the AFM closed and the ignition in the "on" position. As of now I'm getting no power to the pump through the double relay at all, so I'm not quite sure what's going on, I'll have to take a look at the wiring and see if I can't wrap my head around this thing.

The fuel pump was buzzing when I ran out there when the car caught fire, so maybe something did go wrong with the AFM. I'm still working on trying to get the car to start and so far it's proven to be troublesome. Today I took a long flat head screwdriver and with the ignition switch in the "on" position touched the brown wire post on the starter to the red wire post to just see if I could get the car to turn over. The engine didn't turn over nor did I hear a click so I think I'm missing a ground. Does the starter have a ground on the chassis anywhere? Also, where is the black/violet ground located for the ECU?

[toplessexpat]

Have you looked inside the electronics of the AFM and made sure that the contact is actually closing at the end of the track? If this is sqooballed then the flap opening won't help.

Have you checked the inline fuse for the FI system? There's a 16A (I think) in there.

Lastly - have you pulled the ECU plug and run all the resistance tests across the full gamut of FI components (using Brad Artigue's guide - available online)?

A

[spider2081]

I really think you have more than one problem. Again I would trouble shoot getting the car to turn over first. This is an issue that should be easiest to find.

The starter grounds by the bolts that hold it to the engine. The engine grounds by the ground wire connecting the bell housing to the underneath floor of the car. This wire is welded to the floor and is often connected to the bell housing by one of the flywheel cover bolts. Some people move the ground to a starter mounting bolt. Its not uncommon for this wire to break from age.

Jumping the red wire to the brown wire at the ignition switch would make the starter engage is all was good.

With you trouble light probe on the red wire and clip of the trouble light on ground rotate the ignition switch to "start" do you have a lit light???
If you do the problem is after the ignition switch. If you don't have a lit light perform the same test on the brown wire. If you have a lit light on the brown wire you have a problem in the ignition switch. If you don't have a lit light the problem is before the ignition switch.

[BakersChoice]

So diagnosing the starter issue, the red wire for the starter has 12v on it while cranking, when it's not connected to the starter. The moment I hook it up to the starter and crank the engine over, it only puts out 7.88v. I just had the auto part store bench test the battery and they reported back that it's fine, it just needs a charge. So now I'm thinking of pulling the starter and having them test it.

[BakersChoice]

Recharged the battery, still no click.

I'm not sure what is going on, but it's frustrating the hell out of me. I've checked the resistances at the ECU Connector per Brad Artigue's manuals, everything is what it's supposed to be. So now I need to go back and double check all of the wiring for the double relay and make sure it's correct. Also, is there another purpose for the spade connector that normally goes on the back of it? Since mine was melted, I had to just hook up the wires directly to each post on the double relay. Could this be a problem?

[spider2081]

Again I suggest you stay focused on just the "no click" from the starter.
This involves the brown wire on the battery terminal of the starter solenoid going to the ignition switch. The red wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid and the battery connections.

Make these tests with the ignition switch in the "start" position
Measure the voltage on the battery posts.(not the cables) is it 10 volts or above?? If it is 9 volts or less the battery is bad.
Measure the voltage on the battery cables at the battery. Is it 10 volts or greater? If not the battery connections are bad.
Measure the voltage from the battery + connection to a good ground other that the - battery cable ground. Is the voltage the same as when you measured it across the battery cables?
Measure the voltage at the brown wire at C31 the ignition switch connector. Is it 10 volts or more?
Measure the voltage at the red wire st C31. Is it 10 volts or more?

Again all these tests are with the ignition switch in the "start" position.