Car not starting

[azruss]

You may want to bench test the starter. The problem could be with the solenoid. Here is how to bench test. Make a long jumper wire (14-16 gauge will do) with a male spade connector on the end. disconnect the spade connector on the starter and insert the jumper. With the key on and car in neutral, connect the jumper to a known good 12V+. If you don't get a click, then your solenoid is bad. you can also try to give it a whack with a 2x4 or a broom stick while someone tries to start it and see if it jumps into action.

[BakersChoice]

Performed all of those tests, and I lost my 12v on the brown wire at the back of the ignition switch and the red wire at the back of the ignition switch. Also lost voltage to both of these wires on the c31 connector. The moment I put the key in "start it dropped the 12v to 9v. So the connections at the battery are good, so either it must be the stretch of wiring between the starter and the ignition switch, or the ignition switch itself

Hitting the starter with a 2 x 4?? Sounds like a great way to take out my frustration!

After hitting it with a hammer, I still don't get a click. If I had an extra car battery to spare I would do the jumper wire, but I think it might be easier to just pull the starter and have the auto part store bench test it, though it seems I have other things to check before I have them bench test it.

[spider2081]

So you are saying with your meter connected to the battery cables at the battery and the ignition switch in start you had 12 volts.

Did you measure the other end of the battery cable at the starter solenoid and also have 12 volts?? This is where the brown wire to the ignition switch connects.

If you had 12 volts there and not at C31 then it sounds like C7 the brown wire single bullet connector located in the area of the back of the alternator and the driver side fender well is your problem. This is a common cause for your issue. Some people bypass it by adding a # 12 wire from the starter solenoid battery terminal or the alternator output post to the unused terminal 30 on the ignition switch. Bullet connectors are a simple puh together pull apart connector. Can be mistaken for a splice with shrink tubing on it. Cleaning C7 usually corrects the problem.

The brown wire feeds voltage to your ignition switch. A defective ignition switch will not cause the brown wire to have a low voltage measurement.

[BakersChoice]

With my meter connected to the battery, I had 12v when the car was in the "start" position. But at the ignition switch I had 9v on the brown wire in the "start" position.

I didn't have a helper this morning so I couldn't test at the brown wire hookup on the starter but it's next on my list. Yeah I wasn't sure if it would be the ignition switch cause power goes into from that wire so it must be further up the line between the starter and c31 connector.

I cleaned off that bullet connector when it first wasn't starting but if I get 12v directly at the starter then I'll have to bypass it, it looks like

[spider2081]

I forgot to mention there is one other junction that the brown wire passes through, C17. It is located in the area of the hood release under the dash behind the instrument cluster. The brown wire from C7 feeds this junction out of the junction is the brown wire to the ignition switch, a brown white wire that goes to the Fuel injection in line fuse and a black wire that feeds the power window circuits.

[BakersChoice]

Ahh yeah that's right. I'm hoping it's the c6/7 connector, it sounds much easier to bypass. Those old connectors like c17 are very hard to find, I couldn't find the stock connector for the double relay anywhere.

[spider2081]

C17 is a single nylon block it does not come apart like the ignition switch connector. The wires just push into it. C17 has 4 positions.

[BakersChoice]

Ok so I cleaned off all of the connectors from the brown wire on the starter to the ignition switch. Now when I crank the engine over I get 12v at the c17 connector (11.8v to be exact) and the same on the back of the ignition switch connector. On the brown wire coming out of the ignition switch connector I get 12v as well. But when I measure the 12v on the back of the ignition switch it drops to 9.88 still.

[spider2081]

The brown wire is feeding voltage to the ignition switch. Are the wires soldered to you ignition switch or are they push on spade type terminals.
The terminal in C31 the ignition switch connector are a crimp terminal sometimes this crimp loosens. If you probe the brown wire terminal while C31 is plugged in and the ignition switch is in the Start position and measure 12 volts but 9.88v at the other end of the wire (at the ignition switch) I would think the crimp has failed and the wire needs to be cut back until good wire is found and a new terminal crimped on.
Does you starter engage now??

[BakersChoice]

I inspected the wiring on the c31 connector and it's making good connections, the ignition switch connection looks a little rough though so I'll crimp another connection on there. With the c31 connected to the ignition switch on one side I'm get 12v when cranking, on the other side it's still 12v. So the voltage is dropping right at the ignition switch.

Starter is still not engaging.

[spider2081]

I am pretty sure a stock ignition switch for a 1981 Spider 2000 would have the wires soldered onto the ignition switch. If yours are not soldered I question if its the stock switch or a retrofit. If its stock

terminal Color
30 Brown
int Blue/black
50 Red
30/1 Black
15/64 Pink

[BakersChoice]

Oh it's definitely not stock. I bought it from Autoricambi cause the one that was in the car when I bought it went bad. I double-checked the wiring on it when this all started and it's fine.

This to me screams starter, because of the fact that I'm getting no click I'm thinking it's just the starter solenoid and not the starter itself.

[spider2081]

you could jump power form the starter battery terminal or the alternator output post which ever is easier to the spade connector on the starter solenoid to check the starter. If when you jump a known battery voltage to the starter solenoid red wire terminal the starter still does not click then yes the starter has a problem.

Many of the tests I gave you were predicated on a stock ignition switch. I am not familiar enough with after market switches to comment on testing them. I prefer to repair the original switches. Just my approach.

[BakersChoice]

Just to follow up on this...I couldn't get the starter to turn over, so I bought a new one from Napa Auto Parts. I installed it and the car turned over really good then crapped out on me after a few cranks. I took it into O'Reilly to have them bench test it and it was spinning and engaging very slowly. Thinking it was a bad starter, I took it back to Napa to get a refund, and they hooked it up to their machine and it engaged and spun at a fast speed, so lo and behold my starter was fine and O'Reilly needs to get their machine checked out. I bench tested the battery as well, and it came back good.

At this point I knew it was a wiring issue and as I was getting under the car to install the starter I did a better inspection of the ground cable that runs from the starter mounting point to the car body, and it was covered in grease. I cleaned up the wire with some QD Electrical cleaner, took some fine grit sand paper and polished off the area where it connected the starter mounting bolt, as well as the spade connector on the wire. After that it started right up and continues to crank even after multiple times.

However, now that I've mended the burnt wires on the back of the Double Relay, I can't get the fuel pump to run. I've run the diagnostic tests for the double relay and have determined that terminal 85 is getting 12v when not cranking and about 8v when the car is cranking. 85 should be a ground and I can't see how it would pick up voltage. I'm going to check the wiring running to ECU but I used my multimeter to determine that it is hooked up to pin 28 on the ECU like it should be. Does this sound like a bad ECU? Or is there a ground for the ECU that connects to the under body of the car somewhere that I should check out?

Thanks for all the help by the way, I found this forum to be very helpful and am enjoying my stay thus far!

[spider2081]

The ground for the ECU is a ring terminal that is held to the throttle body by one of the back 2 bolts that mount the throttle body to the intake manifold. In total there should be 3 ring terminals, usually 2 under the next to last bolt and 1 under the bolt closest to the firewall. In the ECU pins 16,17 28 34, and 35 are all connected together. Pins 16 and 17 supply the ground for the other 3 when the ECU is plugged in.