Been having some cooling issues lately. Wasn't sure if it was related to putting the heater core back into the coolant circuit in December of last year, an old header that had worsening holes and might have been affecting mixture, or, lastly, a brand new Vick's Auto stainless steel header that was radiating more heat in the engine bay.
Temp was higher than normal, fan was a bit irregular (indicating air in the system as I tested the thermalswitch and relay) and coolant in the expansion tank was going down. A puff or two of white smoke last week alerted me to the fact that it might be coolant getting in the combustion chamber.
In the past day or two engine suddenly became a bit rough; today there is very clear white smoke coming from the exhaust at all times.
I'm now on summer holidays, my wife is taking a vacation for a week with her sister, and my two girls are in camp... it's car time!!! It will be my biggest project: Pulling the head, replacing the head gasket (I have two on hand), plus an extra exhaust and intake manifold gaskets, plus new valve guides, seals, keepers, and Isky heavy duty springs. I even have new intake and exhaust valves if need be, if it makes more sense to use them than try to lap the old ones...
I'll take pictures as I dive in.
Cheers,
phaetn
Time for a head gasket
- phaetn
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:42 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
make sure you check the head for flatness and post some pics of the head gasket once you get the head off
- rjkoop
- Posts: 976
- Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:45 am
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider
- Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
Phaetn,
Let me know if you need any help/advice on your head gasket. I was forced to do mine when a head bolt broke off in the block ( ) while tightening. I suggest buying new head bolts because my 30+ year old ones were really brittle and broke off when I attempted to torque them to specs. The new ones from AR worked perfectly.
Richard
Let me know if you need any help/advice on your head gasket. I was forced to do mine when a head bolt broke off in the block ( ) while tightening. I suggest buying new head bolts because my 30+ year old ones were really brittle and broke off when I attempted to torque them to specs. The new ones from AR worked perfectly.
Richard
Richard
1981 Fiat Spider
Ottawa, Canada
Pictures - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... JNKsNVqjfa
1981 Fiat Spider
Ottawa, Canada
Pictures - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... JNKsNVqjfa
-
- Patron 2020
- Posts: 3466
- Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:00 pm
- Your car is a: 1973 Spider [sold]
- Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Time for a head gasket
The studs Allison sells are also a possibility. Along with his multilayer gasket, my 2 blown OE-style failures have not returned, touch wood.
- phaetn
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:42 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
Thanks for the offers and replies, gents.
Turns out the old head was pretty ugly, though it doesn't explain why I started burning coolant as the gasket looked good with no clear break. I think maybe the head just needed torquing down. It might have been loosened up when a muffler shop put on my new header, or maybe it is just a coincidence. I know the previous owner had the head gasket replaced once before.
Anyhow, there was a fair amount of scoring both on the pistons and head for cylinders 1 and 4. Something metal must have been in there in the past. I'll post pics later. It was working fine for two years, though, so I knew I could put it back on.
Valve seals looked surprisingly good, which was unexpected, since I have been blowing blue smoke on lift off for a year or two. They were still rubbery and flexible, with no clear break. When there is negative pressure in the head it just sucks oil through the valves and burns it. It doesn't happen with full or balanced throttle, just when lifting off and coasting. It looked like there was too much slop in the valve guides and so that was stretching the seals.
My mechanic buddy wanted to send me to a machinist, but the only one he trusted from many years of experience not to mess it up was away on holidays for a week. Then there would be turn around time, so I was looking to be off the road for two weeks. With FFO coming up that didn't seem feasible.
So I pushed him to try and put the guides in ourselves that I had bought. Despite putting them in the freezer to contract them, we broke the shoulder on two of them (they were probably about 1/1000" oversized). Now I was stuck: no head, no guides, no machinist.
I bought a used 1800 head and cam boxes from him and went from there, with springs and tappets already installed. It was a bit slow on one of the valves (intake #1) because it was just ever so slightly gummed up after sitting for years. We got it going and oiled up on a bench, plus more work to drill out a temp sensor. I took it home, installed my old cam shaft pulleys, decoked the existing valves, cleaned up the top of the head, put on new gaskets for the cam boxes, etc. I drained the old oil since with coolant in it it would be hard on bearings. With a new head gasket and Permatex copper gasket sealant I then fit it to the block with the help of a neighbour. It took two or three tries (finiciky with the dowels) to get it to sit right.
9 of 10 bolts torqued to spec 61 lbs. One of them seemed to start slipping -- it was good up to 57 lb/ft. I decided not to push it any further.
We turned it over by hand three times and it was all good. Everything was lined up properly (aux shaft, cam shafts, crank) and I didn't change anything on timing, so it should have been good to go.
I hooked everything back up this afternoon (carb stuff, rad) and went to fire it up. It was hesitant at first -- not unexpected given the oil we had put into the cylinder to lube everything up. It almost seemed to want to catch, but didn't. I had expected one big puff of smoke to clear the oil in the cylinders and then be off and running. I clearly flooded the engine and actually had gas pouring down the carb. I have NEVER had that before. That scares me because it reeks of an engine fire. I suspect maybe the carb float was stuck from having sat dry for a few days; the needle valve would thus stay open and fuel over-fiill the chamber, especially since I have an electric fuel pump that always runs when the ignition is on.
I called it a day and took my kids out to dinner. Tomorrow I will bang the side of the throttle body to see if I can unstick the float without having to fully open up the carb and am etting the battery recharge overnight on a trickly charger. I have a very busy weekend with both my girls in soccer tournaments and solo parenting as my wife is away on a vacation... I will try again tomorrow morning.
Once I get it going I will keep the engine as is for a bit. Clearly given the scoring I will need to get new pistons some time down the line. Maybe in a year or tow. Maybe I will get everything done at that time, using my new valves, springs, etc. and machining this newer head, and get Allison's MLS gasket.
Cheers,
phaetn
Turns out the old head was pretty ugly, though it doesn't explain why I started burning coolant as the gasket looked good with no clear break. I think maybe the head just needed torquing down. It might have been loosened up when a muffler shop put on my new header, or maybe it is just a coincidence. I know the previous owner had the head gasket replaced once before.
Anyhow, there was a fair amount of scoring both on the pistons and head for cylinders 1 and 4. Something metal must have been in there in the past. I'll post pics later. It was working fine for two years, though, so I knew I could put it back on.
Valve seals looked surprisingly good, which was unexpected, since I have been blowing blue smoke on lift off for a year or two. They were still rubbery and flexible, with no clear break. When there is negative pressure in the head it just sucks oil through the valves and burns it. It doesn't happen with full or balanced throttle, just when lifting off and coasting. It looked like there was too much slop in the valve guides and so that was stretching the seals.
My mechanic buddy wanted to send me to a machinist, but the only one he trusted from many years of experience not to mess it up was away on holidays for a week. Then there would be turn around time, so I was looking to be off the road for two weeks. With FFO coming up that didn't seem feasible.
So I pushed him to try and put the guides in ourselves that I had bought. Despite putting them in the freezer to contract them, we broke the shoulder on two of them (they were probably about 1/1000" oversized). Now I was stuck: no head, no guides, no machinist.
I bought a used 1800 head and cam boxes from him and went from there, with springs and tappets already installed. It was a bit slow on one of the valves (intake #1) because it was just ever so slightly gummed up after sitting for years. We got it going and oiled up on a bench, plus more work to drill out a temp sensor. I took it home, installed my old cam shaft pulleys, decoked the existing valves, cleaned up the top of the head, put on new gaskets for the cam boxes, etc. I drained the old oil since with coolant in it it would be hard on bearings. With a new head gasket and Permatex copper gasket sealant I then fit it to the block with the help of a neighbour. It took two or three tries (finiciky with the dowels) to get it to sit right.
9 of 10 bolts torqued to spec 61 lbs. One of them seemed to start slipping -- it was good up to 57 lb/ft. I decided not to push it any further.
We turned it over by hand three times and it was all good. Everything was lined up properly (aux shaft, cam shafts, crank) and I didn't change anything on timing, so it should have been good to go.
I hooked everything back up this afternoon (carb stuff, rad) and went to fire it up. It was hesitant at first -- not unexpected given the oil we had put into the cylinder to lube everything up. It almost seemed to want to catch, but didn't. I had expected one big puff of smoke to clear the oil in the cylinders and then be off and running. I clearly flooded the engine and actually had gas pouring down the carb. I have NEVER had that before. That scares me because it reeks of an engine fire. I suspect maybe the carb float was stuck from having sat dry for a few days; the needle valve would thus stay open and fuel over-fiill the chamber, especially since I have an electric fuel pump that always runs when the ignition is on.
I called it a day and took my kids out to dinner. Tomorrow I will bang the side of the throttle body to see if I can unstick the float without having to fully open up the carb and am etting the battery recharge overnight on a trickly charger. I have a very busy weekend with both my girls in soccer tournaments and solo parenting as my wife is away on a vacation... I will try again tomorrow morning.
Once I get it going I will keep the engine as is for a bit. Clearly given the scoring I will need to get new pistons some time down the line. Maybe in a year or tow. Maybe I will get everything done at that time, using my new valves, springs, etc. and machining this newer head, and get Allison's MLS gasket.
Cheers,
phaetn
-
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:30 pm
- Your car is a: 1970 Fiat 124
Re: Time for a head gasket
I bought Mark's head studs. Very impressed!
- phaetn
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:42 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
Next hurdle: car would barely start. Now very rough and doesn't want to keep going without a lot of gas.
Will do a compression check. Timing was not changed from before and bottom end never turned without the head being back on and with timing belt hooked up. Cams were in proper 11 and 1 positions, aux shaft at 1.
I don't know about valve clearance since I just took the head and cam boxes complete.
Sigh. I knew it was too much to ask for plug and play.
Chamber definitely has fuel and is getting spark. Something else is up: timing or compression would be my best guesses.
Cheers,
phaetn
Will do a compression check. Timing was not changed from before and bottom end never turned without the head being back on and with timing belt hooked up. Cams were in proper 11 and 1 positions, aux shaft at 1.
I don't know about valve clearance since I just took the head and cam boxes complete.
Sigh. I knew it was too much to ask for plug and play.
Chamber definitely has fuel and is getting spark. Something else is up: timing or compression would be my best guesses.
Cheers,
phaetn
- rjkoop
- Posts: 976
- Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:45 am
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider
- Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
I have a timing light and compression tester if you want to borrow.
Richard
Richard
Richard
1981 Fiat Spider
Ottawa, Canada
Pictures - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... JNKsNVqjfa
1981 Fiat Spider
Ottawa, Canada
Pictures - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... JNKsNVqjfa
- 4uall
- Posts: 4145
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:09 pm
- Your car is a: 1980 Fiat Pininfarina Spider 2000 F.I.
- Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
no matter what happens, Fiona is yours to take down if you want/need to
Jay
Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE
https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6
FINN (FN-2187)
2014 Jeep Wrangler Sport
MYTHERPY
Fiona
1980 FI 2000 Spider
ITZEBTZE
https://goo.gl/photos/eNKaX7hrXhBu9fmp6
FINN (FN-2187)
2014 Jeep Wrangler Sport
MYTHERPY
- phaetn
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:42 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
Thanks for the offers, gents.
Richard, I have both, too, so I'm good to go. 4uall, Fiona is yours. I'm trying to get Rocinante going again. Really it's not that complicated, but getting tired after so many days of working on the car. Come hell or high water it's making it to Detroit.
I really appreciate the offers!
Tomorrow is a soccer festival with one of my daughters, then EuroCup final, then I'll attack it again probably on Monday.
Cheers,
phaetn
Richard, I have both, too, so I'm good to go. 4uall, Fiona is yours. I'm trying to get Rocinante going again. Really it's not that complicated, but getting tired after so many days of working on the car. Come hell or high water it's making it to Detroit.
I really appreciate the offers!
Tomorrow is a soccer festival with one of my daughters, then EuroCup final, then I'll attack it again probably on Monday.
Cheers,
phaetn
- phaetn
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:42 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
Woohoo! It's alive!!
Did a compression check and had disappointing numbers. Not sure about the gauge, though.
Put the timing belt cover back on just to verify that maybe in putting the belt on somehow it was off a tooth on the crank. Verified TDC on cylinder #4 and the pulley mark was spot on; cam pulleys and aux shaft were also good, as I thought they should be.
Finally, put in new plugs after gapping them to .045. It fired up right away! WoOOooTT!
Sounds like hell on wheels because the new stainless downtube became separated from the Vick's header and I can't get a tight fit. I will have to take it back to the muffler shop because they had a hard time with just the clamps and I will get them to tack weld it. Right now it's sort of 3/4 on with a coat hanger to a a security measure to prevent it from dropping to the ground. It's so loud I can't hear if there is any valve ticking but it so I will get it sorted.
Once it has been driven a bit I will check compression again as I suspect the valves haven't been run in many years and things may improve as they get run. I did decoke them.
Yeaaahaw! FFO here I come!
Will have to do a test run or two on the highway next week to see that it's not burning anything, and will also retorque the head tomorrow as it has been through one heat cycle today.
Thanks everyone!
Cheers,
phaetn
Did a compression check and had disappointing numbers. Not sure about the gauge, though.
Put the timing belt cover back on just to verify that maybe in putting the belt on somehow it was off a tooth on the crank. Verified TDC on cylinder #4 and the pulley mark was spot on; cam pulleys and aux shaft were also good, as I thought they should be.
Finally, put in new plugs after gapping them to .045. It fired up right away! WoOOooTT!
Sounds like hell on wheels because the new stainless downtube became separated from the Vick's header and I can't get a tight fit. I will have to take it back to the muffler shop because they had a hard time with just the clamps and I will get them to tack weld it. Right now it's sort of 3/4 on with a coat hanger to a a security measure to prevent it from dropping to the ground. It's so loud I can't hear if there is any valve ticking but it so I will get it sorted.
Once it has been driven a bit I will check compression again as I suspect the valves haven't been run in many years and things may improve as they get run. I did decoke them.
Yeaaahaw! FFO here I come!
Will have to do a test run or two on the highway next week to see that it's not burning anything, and will also retorque the head tomorrow as it has been through one heat cycle today.
Thanks everyone!
Cheers,
phaetn
-
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 1148
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:58 pm
- Your car is a: 1979 Fiat Spider
- Location: Montreal Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
That's the great news i wanted to hear as i quietly sat back over the past days and read your posts!!! Get that exhaust sorted and then drive her. Then drive her again. And again! Then repeat as necessary.
- phaetn
- Patron 2018
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:42 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Time for a head gasket
Almost there. Got the exhaust welded yesterday. Sounded like an aeroplane on the way there with no muffling at all.
Now the car backfires like crazy on lift off (probably makes the Prime Minister's security detail nervous!) and the engine is a bit down on power from before, especially over 3500RPM. I think it's because of valve lash. There's also a slight leak at the downtube because he couldn't weld it all the way around. I might try to fill a small gap with JB Weld and let it cure overnight.
Compression is better now as I forgot to do it on a warm engine before. With the throttle wide open on a warm engine numbers are now (from #1 to #4):
125-110-125-120
Low compression on #2 may be because of valve clearances, which are as follows on a stone-cold engine, measure this am:
Intake (from #1 to #4): .023 - .027 - .020 - .019 (Spec is .017-.019)
Exhaust (from 1 to 4): .018 - .018 - .018 - .021 (Spec is .019-.021)
Intake is way off. Exhaust is marginal. The engine with the previous head was .017 on all intakes, .018 on all exhausts and it ran great. Got some shims today and will go at it first thing in the morning once the engine has sat overnight.
Will post pics soon.
Cheers,
phaetn
Now the car backfires like crazy on lift off (probably makes the Prime Minister's security detail nervous!) and the engine is a bit down on power from before, especially over 3500RPM. I think it's because of valve lash. There's also a slight leak at the downtube because he couldn't weld it all the way around. I might try to fill a small gap with JB Weld and let it cure overnight.
Compression is better now as I forgot to do it on a warm engine before. With the throttle wide open on a warm engine numbers are now (from #1 to #4):
125-110-125-120
Low compression on #2 may be because of valve clearances, which are as follows on a stone-cold engine, measure this am:
Intake (from #1 to #4): .023 - .027 - .020 - .019 (Spec is .017-.019)
Exhaust (from 1 to 4): .018 - .018 - .018 - .021 (Spec is .019-.021)
Intake is way off. Exhaust is marginal. The engine with the previous head was .017 on all intakes, .018 on all exhausts and it ran great. Got some shims today and will go at it first thing in the morning once the engine has sat overnight.
Will post pics soon.
Cheers,
phaetn