'77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

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DUCeditor
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Your car is a: 1977 FIAT 124 Sport Spider
Location: Monadnock Area, New Hampshire USA
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'77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by DUCeditor »

My `77 has become a beast to get started. But once started it runs flawlessly, idles beautifully and pulls strongly.

Okay, it has old gas. (Last year I hardly ran her because of having health issues and in truth this year I am really only now ready to drive.)

For a time there was an odd problem with the electric fuel pump. It wouldn't always come on with the ignition, but again, once the engine caught it was flawless. -This I got around with the expedient of running a hot line through a switch that turns the fuel pump on on those occasions when it doesn't come on itself. When the motor fires up I turn off the direct line.

Today I filled up the tank so it is now 2/3rds fresh fuel, and will soon (waiting for delivery) be adding Techron Plus to the fuel just in case it is a clogged jet or something similar.

Anyone have and successfully deal with a similar issue? All suggestions welcome!

-Don



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Italian motorcycles. An Italian car. An Italian wife. What more could a man desire?
SteinOnkel
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Your car is a: 1978 124 Spider 1800

Re: '77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by SteinOnkel »

http://www.fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic ... 69#p290953

Could be something similar.

That reminds me, I need to find out which vent hole wants to be capped.
18Fiatsandcounting
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Your car is a: 1969 and 1971 124 spiders
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Re: '77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by 18Fiatsandcounting »

DUCeditor wrote:My `77 has become a beast to get started. But once started it runs flawlessly, idles beautifully and pulls strongly.
Don, does your car have the dual point distributor? I've seen some of these where the "cold" points were so far off that it had trouble starting, but once the engine started and warmed up just a bit and switched to the "hot" points, it behaved normally.

Check to make sure both points are adjusted properly. I've also seen people wire up both wires (green I think) to the two points so that they both operate on only one set of points, and then make sure that set is adjusted correctly. Perhaps this could be a test of the system, but FIAT put the two points there for a reason.

-Bryan
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Nanonevol
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Your car is a: 1977 Fiat 124 Spider
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Re: '77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by Nanonevol »

Will it restart ok once warm?
1977 Fiat Spider
1985 Jaguar XJ6
1967 Triumph Bonneville (hard-tail chopper)
1966 BSA Lightning
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DUCeditor
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Your car is a: 1977 FIAT 124 Sport Spider
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Re: '77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by DUCeditor »

18Fiatsandcounting wrote:
DUCeditor wrote:My `77 has become a beast to get started. But once started it runs flawlessly, idles beautifully and pulls strongly.
Don, does your car have the dual point distributor?

-Bryan
Those were removed and a single system put in its place a good number of years ago. She ran fine on the single points system.

My understanding is that they were part of the then then new pollution control - that before the catalytic systems made much of he fiddly work-around stuff unnecessary.
Nanonevol wrote:Will it restart ok once warm?
Nope. Sometimes the same. Sometimes even more recalcitrant when warm.

-don
Italian motorcycles. An Italian car. An Italian wife. What more could a man desire?
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Nanonevol
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Re: '77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by Nanonevol »

Curious. So it doesn't sound like an issue of not getting fuel. Might try spraying some starter fluid to confirm that.
I'm suspecting ignition problem, then but I think you should sort out your fuel pump wiring issue anyway.
1977 Fiat Spider
1985 Jaguar XJ6
1967 Triumph Bonneville (hard-tail chopper)
1966 BSA Lightning
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DUCeditor
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Your car is a: 1977 FIAT 124 Sport Spider
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Re: '77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by DUCeditor »

Okay, I think I have this licked. And if so (Several quick and easy starts suggest so) the "cure" was, well, amazingly simple.

As simple as adding a container of Techron and running it through.

As silly as that sounds it was for me a 'forgotten' fix, not a newly learned one.

Back in my active motorcycling days (I was, among other things, a club founder and a columnist for the official Ducati website) I came to know of a product sold by Yamaha called "Ring Free." It was a super fuel additive fuel system and combustion cleaner/solvent that actually was rebranded Chevron Techron.

I started using it yearly in my Spider and did so for some time, and then just sort of forgot about it. (It's been probably 8 or 10 years since I last used it)

Interestingly a mechanic I was using for a time called it his secret fix. Many times, he told me, he'd have a rough running car that did not respond to any 'normal' adjustment. He'd add Techron and then wait for the owner to rave about what he'd done for their car. "One good run over Temple Mountain was all it'd take" he told me.

So I ordered some, put it in the tank and took my baby out for two longish back road blitzes with a rest inbetween.

Two because I was pretty sure the carb's enrichment system was affected so the rest and then cold restart, then rest again and restart seemed to make getting to that more likely.

That's it. Now she at least seems to start up as she used to. East, peasy.

Oh, but also a part of this was that separate fuel pump issue. That's been an on and off on and off for some time. Easy to identity (there is no sound of the fuel pump when the ignition switch is on), but a beast to resolve. A new ignition switch didn't do it. Cleaning the connectors that I could see and reach didn't either.

My "fix" -- more actually a workaround -- was simple in concept, but took a bit of work to do right. It was a fused, lit, switch in the cabin that turned on the fuel pump independently from the ignition switch.

If I turn on the ignition and don't hear the pump I simply switch it on, and then when the engine catches turn it off.

Here's the switch lit for "on."

Image

It is hard mounted, but easily accessible, and easily removable of that ever seems good. The wiring is neat and simple with inline fuses (two actually) and runs through the battery box and rear bulkhead behind the seat -- all carefully run through grommets.

It works like a charm.

-Don
Italian motorcycles. An Italian car. An Italian wife. What more could a man desire?
18Fiatsandcounting
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Re: '77 carbureted - Starts hard, runs well.

Post by 18Fiatsandcounting »

Don, thanks for the update and glad that you're back on the road. To answer an earlier question you had, yes, old gas can cause hard starting problems, especially with modern gas formulations. Here's why.

From what I understand of the topic, modern gas formulations are designed to reduce evaporation and other behaviors that would worsen smog issues (especially in areas like Calif.). As such, it's likely that they contain fewer of the more volatile hydrocarbons that evaporate away with time (either in the underground storage tanks, transporting, at the gas station, or in your car), and unfortunately it's these easily volatilized hydrocarbons that are needed for starting an engine, especially an older one. Modern engines with all the computer control likely get around this issue with careful metering of the fuel and ignition timing, but on a '77 Fiat with a carb, old (bad) gas is simply going to be harder to start the engine with.

I have a '69 Chevy pickup that I use just for hauling stuff to the dump or to Home Depot or the like, and it's not unusual to go 2 years before it needs a fill-up. Yes, two years, and I kept track of each fill up in a log. After about a year on a fill up, the engine does get harder to start. Perhaps I'll try some techron or the like.

-Bryan
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