WARNING on LADA Ignition Switches

[RRoller123]

I offer a warning for those who have replaced their faulty ignition switches with a brand new LADA unit.

2 days ago, while doing other work on my car, I started the engine and heard an odd noise, sounded like rushing wind, and the engine would run but not accelerate. I got out and took a look in the engine compartment, thinking that maybe a hose or exhaust leak, blown manifold gasket, fan running, etc had occurred, whatever. Seeing nothing, I got back in and switched the car off.

It was then that I noticed that the new LADA ignition switch, which I had installed maybe only a little over a year ago, had failed (with no more than 75 starts maximum), as follows:

From "RUN" to momentary "START" worked fine, and then, when letting go of the key, the switch appeared to return to the "RUN" position. IT DID NOT FULLY RETURN. It returned nearly all the way and stopped, LEAVING THE STARTER ENGAGED. When I got back into the car and touched the key, there was a small click and the switch moved CCW a tiny amount and disengaged the starter. The noise of the starter fighting the ring gear on the flywheel was odd, not immediately recognizable, sounded like rushing air.

So I may now have a perished starter pinion gear, which would be the best result, as replacing the flywheel ring gear is a very big job. But pulling the starter in this cold here would be no fun. Will know later this morning what is needed.

Mark Allison told me last night that he just had a car come into his shop for the same problem, so I will assume that this is NOT random. He has replacement starter pinion gears. Short term solution is that it would be advisable to positively move the key from the "START" position back to the "RUN" position when starting a car with the LADA ignition switch installed. Do not rely solely upon the spring to return the key to "RUN" and disengage the starter.

I have been contemplating designing and installing a push button starter system and removing the entire FIAT ignition system switch, I think this may be the event that prompts me to get that done. The ignition switch system and the FI system are the two most irritating, terribly unreliable systems by far on these cars, IMHO.

Pete

p.s. Shout out to both Mark Allison and to Csaba Vandor, who both have been extremely helpful, and very quickly responsive, to this and other issues and many email questions that I have bombarded them with over the past week or two. We are very fortunate to have commercial enthusiasts like them available as resources.

[tima01864]

Will be interesting to see the push button design.

[SteinOnkel]

Had a smiliar issue. Not sure how old the Lada switch was.

Replaced it with a brand new one (also Lada), installed a ton of relays to take as much load off of it as possible, grabbed a new starter as well. Been fine for about 8 months now.

[RRoller123]

Mine is new too and has been fine for probably about a year? It is a mechanical issue, where the return spring caught before the key was back to the "RUN" setting and releasing the starter.

Thank God that the car starts and runs, and that neither the ring gear on the flywheel, nor the pinion gear on the G/R Starter were damaged badly! At least it sure doesn't seem that they were.

Pet project this Spring will be designing and installing a push button system. This will be my revenge.

[SteinOnkel]

Mine is new too and has been fine for probably about a year? It is a mechanical issue, where the return spring caught before the key was back to the "RUN" setting and releasing the starter.

Thank God that the car starts and runs, and that neither the ring gear on the flywheel, nor the pinion gear on the G/R Starter were damaged badly! At least it sure doesn't seem that they were.

Pet project this Spring will be designing and installing a push button system. This will be my revenge.

I'm pretty sure the new 124 has a push button start. It would be sweet if you could source parts from that.

It is insane how well my '78 starts now. I've owned about 30 cars, none of them ever started as well as this thing.

[spider2081]

I believe the original Sipea ignition switch is much better quality both electrically and mechanically then the Lada replacement. I have a repaired Sipea ignition switch in my 81 Spider. It has worked for the past 10 years and about 40 thousand miles. I do have relays for the starter,headlights, for lights, wipers, and radiator fan.

[joelittel]

Glad to hear that your car wasn’t damaged too badly. Seems like you dodged a bullet with this one.

Sorry to hear about your troubles but happy to hear about your plan.

I’d like to add a +1 to the “looking forward to seeing your push button start solution” list. I’m a big fan of thoughtful modifications and this one could help solve some issues most of us have experienced at one time or another. There’s an interesting little gadget called the MotoGadget M Unit Blue that I’ve been considering for my motorcycle. In a nutshell it allows you to use your phone as the “key” and a push button start, all connected via Bluetooth. It’s actually much more powerful than that but you get the idea.

It might be worth looking into as well.

[RRoller123]

All of the racing websites have examples of push button ignition plates, switches, etc, from which the basic physical outline can be envisioned. It is a pretty simple task to map out the action of each output lead in position OFF, ACC, RUN, START, and transform that into a series of sequential switches, each enabling the next, with a power lead direct from the battery. All enabling relays. Kind of a digital problem, signal just goes either high or low. Will fiddle with the idea, been thinking about doing it for awhile now.

[spider2081]

I have serviced a number of Sipea ignition switches over the years. Yes the start contacts are usually pitted and burnt but often the light circuit and the ignition circuits contacts need attention also. I'm mentioning this because installing a "start" push button switch may not address all the issues in a 40 year old ignition switch.
I serviced 2 ignition switches from Spiders with automatic transmissions. These cars have a relay between the start contacts of the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. I was surprised how clean the start contacts were in those switches. I would suggest installing a Bosch style cube relay between the ignition switch terminal 50 and the starter solenoid start terminal.

[RRoller123]

If I work on this project, it will be to completely replace the ignition switch, not just the "START" portion.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Pete, thanks for the heads-up on this issue. I've had a few instances where the starter didn't disengage once the engine fired, and I would describe it more of a "whhrrrrr" sound. Not good of course, but my sense is that it's not likely to do too much damage as long as the condition is momentary. When the starter does this, the solenoid is engaged longer than it was meant to be, which runs the risk of eventually burning out the windings. Or the contacts in your ignition switch due to the current flow.

The other issue is that, when the starter stays engaged while the engine is running, the starter motor itself is spinning much faster than it was designed to do, as it's being carried along for the ride. I sense that the cranking speed with just the starter motor is 100 to at most 200 rpm, so even when the engine is just idling and the starter motor is still engaged, the starter motor is spinning at least 4 or 5 times faster than it was designed to do. Not good for bearings and the like. And that "rushing" sound you heard (or "whhhrrrr" as I described it)? That's likely the sound of your starter motor shaft and armature spinning way faster than they should. Kind of a much larger version of those little D size battery-operated DC motors you might have played with as a kid.

Anyway, sounds like you have a path to a solution, and so my above input is just my thoughts rather than specific suggestions.

-Bryan

[tima01864]

It is a good thing our cars are light enough to push and jumpstart with the clutch

[RRoller123]

Bryan, that explanation for the sound makes complete sense! I bet that is exactly what was happening. Tim, we will push as need be in and out of the barn!

(pistons/seals/gaskets, etc have arrived, injectors due Monday afternoon)

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Ahhh, the memories of pushing my '69 by the vent window frame on level ground up to 5 or 6 mph, jumping into the car while it was still rolling, and popping the clutch while in 3rd gear. Most of the time, it started...! I just had to remember to push in the clutch once the engine fired, or it would stall again.

Poor man's starter motor, I guess.

-Bryan

[TwinFast]

Thanks for the information. I also have a LADA ignition switch installed few month ago. The car worked fine since then but i noticed these last days that sometimes when i turn the key from "RUN" to "START" nothing happen. I need to do it 2 or 3 times to have an ignition.

Is it the beginning of the ignition switch failure ?