Weber advice,...

[wetminkey]

So,...
The story is evident in the email thread. Please take a look at the "advice" that I've received (the second time - first was far more rambling and without any advice, a year ago) from Redline Weber. Weber used to be the best of two barrel carbs,...
Here's the email thread,...sorry, it starts at the bottom:



On 4/1/2020, Todd Compton wrote:
Thank you for your response, Bud.
The carb was bought last March, new in box. I made the accel. linkage mod. (added an angle and ball stud) to provide full throw to the linkage, at the angle that it sits. Otherwise, the carb's secondaries would not open fully.
Here's the story:
1979 Fiat Spider 2000 with auto tranny. 5000 ft altitude in Colorado. Single plane intake and DFEV swap from dual plane intake and ADHA, last March. Hasn't left the garage since,...
Starts right up. Idles OK - not great, but OK. When warmed (at a standstill), accelerates to about 1500 - 1800 then "bogs" (tries to die,...either flooded,...or perhaps starved, but I doubt that). Blackened plugs.
I found intake leak (emissions charcoal canister that I attached to manifold, rather than to air cleaner),...blocked. No other vacuum leaks. Car ran "better" (maybe), but still not driveable. Same response.
Original DGV paperwork with the carb states that the DFEV (stamped "DFAV") was intended for a Ford 6cyl. and specified 18mm top of float to gasket and 2mm needle drop, which was quite a bit different than the factory float setting. Corrected, car ran just as bad, or worse.
Winter,...convertible stored.
This spring, found coolant leak at intake/block after idling for four e-fan cycles. Pulled intake, new gasket, resealed,...have not refilled coolant and re-installed carb yet.
The carb has the proper jets that the Spanish factory put in the DFEV. I've checked.
I got tired of troubleshooting the car over the winter, so I pulled the carb for full inspection. Good thing, the diaphragms were kinda 'crispy' (stiff),...as in a carb I would have rebuilt.
I found every other Fiat Spider owner is setting their Weber DFEV float to 35mm from bottom of float to gasket (which is only 10mm from the top of the float to the gasket - FAR from 18mm!), and their cars run GREAT! So I've gone back to what I believe were the original carb's settings while rebuilding it.
My carb is now set at 35mm and 51mm (top of float to gasket), and I've decreased both of my idle jets by one step (-0.5mm) due to the altitude and mix screw too far in for best idle on my previous tests,...I'm ready to try it again. I already have Weber's recommendations for rejetting for altitude and the rejetting kit for the DFEV.
Just FYI, I've tried to keep the idle speed adjustment screw at 1.5 turns out all of this time, or less, due to the progressive fuel outlets in the primary bore,...
I don't want he car to run like a Ferrari, I would just like it to run well enough to go for a short drive,...thanks.
Todd.


From: Bud Pauge <budp@worldpac.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 1:03 PM
To: Todd Compton <wetminkey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: DFEV float setting?

OK to confirm this was purchased as a carburetor only on Years ago about ???

You did not purchase a K518 or K519 depending on your oem application these are kits we sell as replacments for the OEM application on this carburetor

the internal settings and some basic calibration is changed for these application along with the supply of a new lever to allow you to maintain the factory linkage configuration with out the modifications it appears you had to do.

Please confirm for my the issues your having after installing the carburetor


I would not expect to have to purchase a rebuild kit after only a Year

so I feel you must have had some other issues around the function of this application


Can I presume you purchased your carburetor through Piercemanifolds as well or just this last Rebuild kit. A picture of the box and lable for this kit would help me understand the confusion over two different specifications.


They are generally the same and a difference in how different people choose to confirm minimum float drop movement


as you noted some people are not aware of where the Weber float settings are measured from

so the float drop reference some chose to simply measure that needle drop.


basicly that measurement is about have the original value from the factory trying to make this setting more like a mico switch and use limited float travel
critical to new fuel values and function current fuels in your area can be equivalent to roughly 18 to 20% Ethanol / Alcohol

so the goal is to drop the factory float setting by about 2 mm and to limit the total float travel as the fuel will now boil at a lower point for two reasions your eleveation and the fuel weight in density.


Redline is a leader in this change and this is a difference in how many people look at our fuels today


so it is critical to the function of all Webers with todays fuels


First

the float measurement location

with gasket in place much like your picture carb top on its side but slightly tilted so the float is falling back toward the carb top

have the float tab just contacting the spring loaded ball in the needle and seat but not preloading that spring and ball


at that point measure from the carb top gasket while in contact with the carb top down to the flat top surface of the float at the point farthest from the needle and seat / or the float hing pin there should be a visual angle away from the carb top it will no longer be parallel with the carb top as it was in the past. you want this float level to measure 17 to 18mm give your self a little room I personally use 17.5. The range optioni works Knowing over time the weight of the float will beat this down a little and the float it self can be flexable and bend slightly over time. Lowering the float level creates more seat pressure to limit fuel boiling and disrupting the stable fuel level. limiting float and excess fuel entry as the float bounces from the boiling.

Then look for the second tab this is the float drop tab and as you bring the top float facing down to the top of your work table or the ground the float will drop

measure the float from the same position carb top gasket ( while in contact with the carb top ) to the top of the float at a point farthest away from the needle and seat / or float hing pin. Full float travel is limited at 22.5 to 23 mm limiting full drop by about half of the origonal factory value most manuals still show the older brass float that was also heavy. The black float over time has changed its shape and size over time allowing more volume which also with new fuels an issue of allowing with to much travel more fuel to be replaced when it is not being consumed. Meaning on new roads or offroad there is more bounce from improved suspension and also from slap board road conditions due to weather changes and road bead movment. This allows the float to bounce more on its own along with lower boiling point of new fuels this then limits any excess fuel into the carb bowl and again a stable float lever for improved function.


The fiat is a sports car so you have side force and other factors in play . Great little car and to some almost a Ferrari so it tends to get used as it was designed a nice road going sports performing Roadster.


I hope this helps


Please see the attached flyer for your reference the the conversion kit we offer it might be something you can use for your files or pass on to other fiat users

our goal was to improve the function and use over the factory carburetors as well as the older other performance 34 mm applications


Please if you have a moment as you put this back together take a few pictures of your final install.


Please also as you follow the tuning guide I believe that was supplied in your Redline rebuild kit confirm your final best idle settings


the fact that you purchased this kit has me in fear there were other function issues and understanding your final best idle setting we can assist in guiding you to a possible improved calibration for your location


the elevation across Colorado from Las Vegas and or Grand Junction to Denver can change drasticly


sometimes the locations around dever that may appear lower can tune sever thousand ft higher example a longer distance away Roswell New Mexico an elevation lower than say Denver for calibration purposes will calibrate neary two thousand feed higher.


So VERy key point here

In colorado many people will take fuel away for starters

Never do this it is not the fuel that changed as the car gains elevation it is the Air that is lost

so in our tuning guide we give tuning reference and from that information we can help you correct your calibration for more performance and better economy

we offer a DFV calibration kit and in that kit is a range of larger Main air jets as well as a range of low speed Low range jets for both primary and secondary along with surprise Larger mains and as noted Larger Main air jets


With the new fuels being closer in there function range to 20% Alcohol its not uncommon to go up one full size in main fuel and two sizes larger main airs this jet pac then allows you a range of calibration to tune for your engine performance or upgrades over your ownershop.


Please confirm your full situation Im more familiar with areas south of Denver Pikes Peak, the Western faceDurango and south east Lajunta.

Tuning for Colorado can be its own wide World hope we can help.


Do you have or own any main idle and air jets in your tool box.


If this carburetor was just standard bulk unit You will need to addess this calibration range.


confirm what you can about your current best idle settings for your idle speed screw toattain your initial best idle and the mixture screw when set for its best sweet spot


also VERY important What is your initial standard idle timing and what is your total timing advance over 3000 rpm


Look for any input glade to help


Bud Pauge

Redline


OOO which is the best setting

the open and closed measurment I believe

and I added my guidance to that as well

I find it very hard to measure that little gap for the needle tab movment. Its just a general check in my mind
we supply a wide range of users and with that my staff does try to address that group.


I personaly have over 65 years with Weber most of my team has no less than 25 years so there a pretty good bunch We only deal with and support Genuine Weber


FYI which you have so thank you for that support we are glade to help in any way


Have fun and Be safe your I think in a great location for social distancing and the room to use some of that sports car feel and speed keep it fun
Bud.


Sorry to say back when I was young I did not have a camra or anyone to take pictures so I cannot attach any pictures of Aspin raceway, La Junta sports car course on the old air field or Pueblo motor sport park.

Spent many years going there and Roswell New Mexico in my SCCA Days Very much aware of all the weather and elevation changes of the Colorado landscape


Its a real fun group of locations and People to race with


as noted Keep it fun!!!


If you have any pictures of your ride send it with pictures of your install these are fun cars

FYI if over time your looking for another 30% more torque and performance gain the K518 38 offers that much more gain with a linkage change over the option you hava today that is the performance gain over our own 32 36 but more important the 38 offers more volume in air intake so the Performance gains are infact 40% more in the higher elevation ranges simply do to the air intake volume torque is up 30 HP and function range increase over 40% in ET and performance gains .


There is a future if there is no budget in the future for duel DCOE carbs.


Like I note this is one of the last performance sports cars just not quite a Ferrari.



On 3/27/2020 6:06 PM, Todd Compton wrote:
I've got these for you, Bud. I think they'll show the details that you need to see,...


32/36 DFEV, bought separately a year ago. "Made in Spain" and "by LCN" cast into the side. Plastic floats.


Original paperwork called for 18mm from gasket to top of float, and 23mm from gasket to top of float, but additional paperwork specified a 2mm 'needle drop' instead. Which end of the float? And which setting is best?
"Tune up kit" from piercemanifolds.com Redline Weber 92.3230.05 just installed.
This is going on a stock 2000cc Fiat Spider, and I'm on the plains of northern Colorado.
Thank you, Todd.



From: Bud Pauge <budp@worldpac.com>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2020 5:49 PM
To: Todd Compton <wetminkey@hotmail.com>; Ronald Soules <rons@worldpac.com>
Subject: Re: DFEV float setting?

todd Please confirm a picture of your carburetor and confirm a float reference there are two over history


any ideal of when itwas purchased was it part of a kit or was this a carburetor purchased seperatly


confirm a picture of at least two sides or two three quarter view pictures of each side


Have you purchased a rebuild kit / gasket repair kit if so please confirm the dealer or the part number they supplied.


the information is miss leading on the web based on the 40 year history of this carburetor. From the Holley / Weber option to out right Chinese and Indian knock offs then we throw in changes and manufacture differences from Weber to there OEMs so I will note it is confusing a picture of your carb and some reference as to if you have it the float or how you set it up.


The float level information should have been in the tuning guide that came with the Redline weber rebuild or conversion kit.


also for more guidance What is the vehicle application we will have a variation for offroad or dune buggy vs a Datsun or honda sedan.


Look for your follow up


we can help confirm your location fuels in the regions change and please confirm a possible phone contact incase I can call and assist direct


Bud Pauge

Redline


On 3/27/2020 4:41 PM, Todd Compton wrote:
Can you tell me what the proper settings are for the Weber 32/36 DFEV's float,...and which end of the float it is measured at?
Thank you, Todd Compton.






I really thought that I had asked a pretty straight-forward question, all in all! But no matter how many times I've asked, I always get a different answer. I'll take the advice that I got from our forum members before I'll believe this. Several have advised 35mm and 51mm top of float to gasket, and that's where I'm set right now. Wish my Spider, and I, good luck!
Todd Compton.

[wetminkey]

Thought it was just an April Fool's joke, huh?
Well the insanity continues with the response, from Redline Weber, today:


todd



First you just understand a few things We are Weber carburetors these days we are the last of only Two worldwide dealers for Weber. We have been a Weber distributor for over 55 years I have worked for Weber for over 65 years.

of the people left in the World that where and have been trained In italy I may be one of only 4 to 5 left not that that means a lot it just means of us there are simply very few people that understand and expand on the Weber tuning principals.


One of those 5 people just passed way and the other is moving into retirement restoring older sand cast body vintage applications.


so I have two problems there are a great many copies and Weber manuals and tuning guides out there on the market

I unfortunatly in the US was likely one of only two guys on the team that origonaly tried to pass on the information we knew created the master calibration guides used in most of the published applications and back then we never considered fuels would change as drasticly as they have over the history of any one of these carburetor productions .


So with that things like a listing for a DFAV carburetor ( this just means when it was cast and assembled the raw assembly no coke applied was planed on an OEM vehicle applicataion which was back then a Water choke intended.


later that reference was just considered an auto choke reference . Back then 45 or so years ago 90% of the applications were water choke which corroded and failed over time or manual chokes.


OEM and ourselves moved forward and the Electric choke options are now the standard but the carburetors are stamped with an a unless we stamp over that a with an e that looks ugly so we do not do that.


as for fitting a ford 6 it fit a range of motors from as small as the pinto, Escort , Capri 1600s the 2.0 the 2.3 Fiats as well as other work applications.


Yes the settings for the float back then they were Brass was measured from the bottom and the float top at that value where level parallel to the carb top with a common full drop of 35 as well


over the years with the fuel changes boiling pruckulation and other issues the float settings were modified for regional and other values


the listing posted years ago have lived on.


we became the world source of information we supply it with our product and when confirmed we are working on a real Weber
from Delorto to solex to the chinese and Indian copies of our carburetors we have no need to do there R&D and help then get there product functional


so we do not go out of our way to make this information know other than to our dealers


in many cases we offer the assistance from a technical support formate but once someone thinks what they think not everyone is up for input and new guidance

it has worked for me is what they say so we leave it alone untill it does not.


then most people come back for a siminar or listen


so all that you say is true why it does not work I believe I know and understand.


But I need if I can from you the information of things like you note you have them set to the Weber guidance for elevation


can I con firm what that value is an how you got there

please confirm your full calibration and the current best idle settings


another reference which is flexable all the rules are applied with some level of reference and bracketing example I expect a speed screw to be at or around 1 1/2 turn it can go 1 3/4 or to 2 we make a jet change acordingly with the reference of the mixture screw and idle jet value

so in the end if I change an idle jet larger or smaller the mixture screw should move an amount in or out to retrim that idle value and the idle speed screw should also be affected.


to offer you help its not about just changing the jet it is about what changes from that jet change corrisponded.


a reference to the timing is important at this point as well.


We will not or commonly do not as well as the jetting maintain the same timing today as we did years ago again there is some personality to it based on region the fuels and the engine build I may want 12 or 14 degrees but your build may not like it over time so there is a feel and value we can ajust but we can see the change on the carburetor and the motor and adjust that


my goal is to simply do these things one thing at a time climbing the latter one run at a time


so we make it idle we confirm timing we make adjustments to that not related to accell just make it idle and confirm the settings


we correct or change that and move on to the transition.


we make corrections to that which can be more idle jet change or more commonly the main fuel jet and main air jet gap or difference in the primary barrel
you can see how the path goes here

the Weber is a sequentially timed series of events best on presure and depression across the manifold and combustion chamber its more like fuel injection than other carburetors

so what I need to offer any assistance.


is what calibration full calibration is in the carb now

you have the factory float level for now im not much worried about that till we get some run on or other events that come with that float level at your location and elevation keep an eye on the booster venturies and confirm if and when you start to see or notice fuel dripping from the boosters.


at some point that will be a specific target or thing we will want to confirm.


NOW as I talk about this can you take me a picture from the very top of the carburetor that shows me those venturies down from the top of t he carburetor


again as many pictures as you can take help me look for what I cannot see or guess to ask


Yes the carburetor you purchased came with 60 might have even had 65 idle jets in it it is very likely to have to drop that to a 55 which it soundsas if you have
but again not to be mean in any way I only want to assist its spring and a nice time to be on the road in your area.


My racing comments were mostly to let you know I am aware of the micro climates in Colorado new mexico montana and Wyomiing

these things all can have an affect on your situation


right now with out seeing anything I am limited to my guidance that will not all sound redundent and contrary to the world of the Blog.


My only input there is you kind a got to pick one


my information is for what your issues and your problems are someone else will look at this and tell you what they do but it or there application may not be the same other than the body and the valve / Cam cover


they mean well but there issues were there issues we need to focus on your issue.


I need to narrow in on yours and your replies to what you tell me with each change


and move forward up that ladder. one step at a time .


I only mean well and trying to make this at least an intertaining call not a lesson.


I have in my mind 4 options or issues Im looking for the sound of I can take a shot at any one as I hear the information you pass on


from there if I pick a wrong path the changes we make will confirm which one of the other three options are in or out of play.


right now I only know a little it does not work and at some point it takes no gas.


My only starting point then is to know the calibration , timing at idle , Timing with vacume advance and timing with out vacume advance connectted.

then the current best idle settings do not tell me they are at speck I need your feel and touch its kind a 1 and 3/4 ish its not very flexable almost no change at all

any of those comments help.
but I need a real number for each screw .


And there is one more screw I presume your aware of it ?? maybe not there is a screw that is in contact with the choke Hi speed cam it is back and under the choke housing area.
it should be fully un connected with the cam when the choke flap is full open in our instructions I even give information to manualy open that choke flap to check that setting. to confirm it is cleared before starting the tune up settings.


thinking about your issue there may be something to look at here


I have re read this note a few times trying to think out how this could go so wrong


I presume it must be because the dealer that sold you this did not sell a kit and did not supply you with the instructions with our phone contact for technical support


for now Please send me some pictures of your install and system


then if you get a chance confirm the calibrations and the few running tests I mentioned


from there I can give you things to look at and at worst have you pull the carb and return to me for a full factory inspection and I can run this for you on a motor

but I fully believe if I can walk you one step at a time with in two maybe three calls we should have it running


or know what the problem is with the carburetor.


I will just consider how you have the settings for floats and things as a base line we as long as I know the calibration I can use this to bracket what changes or issues we can work with


Ultimatly if not send that carburetor to us directly and we will confirm the issue or have it running. before I send it back


NOW one big thing in this note and it will almost totaly change every thing


and answer a lot of questions


This is not a 4 or 5 speed stick shift it is a manaul automatiac transmission. Basicly the idle drops 150 or 200 rpm when you put it in gear


are you trying to tune this in gear.


I will have to look back and confirm which dealer you confirmed sold you this package that becomes important now for me


and I have different guidance on tuning with the new fuels and issues with automatic transe set up


this to has changed just based on fuels


if so again will take a swing at getting it closer to running but in the end I believe I will have to have this sent in and possible mods made to the carburetor for the automatic transe


but I almost read by that a 5th time


I think this is a bid change in how I address this carburetor


I look for your comments


but do what you can to confirm these first base line set up settings and calibration


Bud Pauge


my only issue now is how hard it falls on its face.

which is where I started and a picture from the top of the carb will help

with that


then the set up details for speed and mixture screw settings


good luck and be safe




I thought I'd asked a very simple question,...I only wanted some measurements. I can tell that I'll get nowhere with Bud's advice. I'm done with Redline Weber,...
Just thought you might like to know what kind of Weber support is out there!
Todd.

[wetminkey]

Multiple communications with Weber, and with no better results.
This is a whole load of BS! This car will NOT run with this brand-new DFEV,...it is impossible to set an idle! The engine barely turns with Weber's recommended setup settings, and dies after a few moments. I am unable to increase the idle speed, since it is a progressive carburetor.
Weber is of no help. My car has not run in a year. I am truly not sure what I am going to do about my beautiful little car,...I can't even move it.

[bobplyler]

I know you said you checked for vacuum leaks, but it kinda sounds like one.

[wetminkey]

No leaks.

[SteinOnkel]

Your DFEV has a manufacturing defect and needs to be replaced. By process of elimination it's the only logical answer, however undesirable it may be to you.

Send it to someone on this forum (i.e. me) and have them bolt it to their engine and see what happens. Or take it to a carb shop and get it flow tested. Or bin it and buy something else.

[dinghyguy]

Hey Todd,

how about sending it to Midwest or Allison and see if they can make it work? Not to mention they can tune it for you. just a thought if you don't want to send it to a forum person. Or if you send it to me i will test it, if it works fine i will send you a rebuilt 32 adf that works in trade...…

cheers
Dinghyguy

[SteinOnkel]

How would they tune it? Unless he sends them the entire engine lol.

[dinghyguy]

He has a stock 79 2l, i know Midwest will have something the could put it on to confirm it works properly.....
But you are right you do need to put it on an engine.

But we need to get this problem solved and kill off these threads.....if i lived within 200 miles of him i would drive over and try it on my car as long as he provided the beer, just to put this thread out of its misery.

cheers
dinghyguy

[wetminkey]

How about my timing belt is off by a tooth at the crank?
Same question that I've been trying to get answered for over a year,...?

[SteinOnkel]

Here's how to determine if your timing belt is off. Set crank, camshafts, all pulleys to the desired positions. Put your timing belt on and tighten everything. Now note where it is "off". Put some sort of (removable) mark there. Loosen the belt. Take it off. Reset everything. Reinstall the belt but this time intentionally start "off" by a tooth on the crankshaft. Let's say your crank is now off by one tooth ccw. How is everything lining up now? Better? Or worse? Most likely worse. Relax and reset everything. Now reinstall the belt, again "off" by a tooth, but this time in the cw direction. Again, how does everything line up? Perfectly? Great, leave it there. If not, go back to your initial setup and call it a day.

What you will determine with this method is whether or not the slop in the engine, belt, pulleys, etc is of consequence. The manufacturing tolerances, especially on twin cam motors are much larger than you think. It is almost always impossible to get every single pulley and shaft to line up one hundred percent perfectly. And this is by no means exclusive to older engines. Even on the timing belt from hell (Audi 2.7T, manufacturer states 20 hours of labor to replace timing belt*) which is a much more precisely machined and designed engine, the belt does not line up perfectly everywhere. Nor on my VW which has an engine from 2001. I've done around twenty twin cam timing belts in my life and I can count on one had the times everything lined up just right.

*Yes, you read that correctly. In reality the job takes 35 hours the first time around and you need $300 in special tools. That's the type of dedication and devotion this hobby takes. So you can maybe start to guess why everyone here is pretty tired of you complaining about a timing belt that takes twenty minutes to check and re-do or a $50 "test my carburetor please" postage stamp.

[wetminkey]

Waaaaaa?

[SteinOnkel]

Okay, let me paraphrase.

Timing Belt Issue

On the vast majority of twin cam engines, there is no single configuration that lines all individual components up perfectly. By components I mean the crankshaft, camshafts, other pulleys etc. So you set your Crankshaft perfectly to the mark and install the belt, yes? Well, now one or more of the components is slightly off. To determine whether or not this is normal, you intentionally set the crankshaft differently by one tooth in the clockwise and counter-clockwise direction. You are now faced with two possible outcomes: more components are off or less components are off. If the latter, leave it there. If the former, go back to the initial configuration.

Carburetor

You most likely have a manufacturing defect within the carburetor. Some passage isn't drilled all the way through. The internal machining is off. This makes it behave strangely, i.e. main jet not opening etc. Based on the essays you have typed up here, I'd say that's a very likely scenario right now. You can't remedy that situation, but you can test for it by process of elimination. Three options to do so: 1) send your carburetor to someone else and have them test it on their engine. If their engine behaves the same as your engine, your carburetor is to blame. 2) Have your carburetor flow tested. 3) Acquire another carburetor, new or used doesn't matter which type ANYTHING that will bolt to your engine.

[RRoller123]

You can use adjustable cam wheels to get to that in between point too. Plus the wheels are a LOT lighter than the cast iron stock wheels. Rotational momentum, etc. But of course the cost is not trivial by any means.

[wetminkey]

No, steiny. Read,...I DO NOT HAVE A POINTER FOR MY CRANKSHAFT. Therefore, I could NOT have set my crank on that mark.
Mark on the pulley, NO pointer to match it with,...
And you don't know ANYTHING about this carb,...how can you make these assumptions?!
I'm talking about the same thing that I brought up a year ago,...and no one read, or remembers! Cams align with pointers, but with NO REFERENCE for the crank, who knows where, exactly, it needs to be.
No wonder I've gotten no where on this forum,...