How to identify a genuine Weber carburetor

[MIGHTY 8]

Found this link while browsing on eBay, thought it may be of interest to some.


What is a Genuine WEBER carb?

This is hotly debated topic, but mostly among those selling the what can only be described as a "similar" carburetor. The word "Similar" has many synonyms and here are few: COPY, FORGERY, FAKE, and even COUNTERFEIT. These carburetors are being sold primarily by North American Weber (aka Interco, or on ebay as "Webercarbsdirect"). While not all carburetors being sold by them should be considered "similar" - many are. Interco has gone so far as to protect their legal rights to purchase/make carburetors from China (and previously South America) and brand them as Webers. After losing the ability to purchase carburetors directly from Spain they turned to Solex for a "similar" carburetor - known as a 34 DGEC. After being exposed for what they were: not the original European Weber, they turned to China to duplicate (copy, replicate, or whatever synonym you chose) the Weber so it would look "similar" to the Genuine European Weber.

The North American carburetors are easily distinguished from the European Weber by several characteristics:
The Genuine European Weber have the trademark "W" stamped into the carburetor and is clearly marked with its origin "Made in Spain"
The only markings on the NorthAmerican Webers is a sticker. There are no markings indicating where it is made or who made it.
The casting on the Chinese made carburetors is very smooth. While you might assume that is better because if it's appearance they are not made using the same metal resulting in the appearance.
The North American Weber carburetor models 32/36 DGV, 32/36 DGEV, and 38 DGES all have a black choke element - all of the Redline Webers coming from Europe have a White choke element.
The hope here is to clear some confusion by different merchants claiming they are selling Genuine Weber carburetors. How does a consumer discern what Genuine really means?

The WEBER story

The founder of the WEBER carburetor was Eduardo Weber. You can read a detailed History at the following link: http://www.magnetimarelli.com/english/p ... storia.php.
The WEBER carburetor company as we know it started in 1935 in Bologna, Italy. They produced carburetors there till 1992 when production was moved to Spain.

When we think of WEBER carburetors this is the company that we refer to. The “WEBER” name is currently owned by Magneti Marelli of Italy. This international company owns many other brands – the most interesting of which is SOLEX. The Solex carburetors were a major competitor to WEBER for almost 60 years – and today they are owned by the same parent company. Magneti Marelli licenses the use of the “WEBER” name to many entities worldwide. Licensing in some cases means they can use the WEBER name and the WEBER mark to brand a product that otherwise would not be recognized as a WEBER.

Car manufacturers regularly brand products. GM produces a car in Europe (Opel) in a plant that GM owns – brings it to the states and sells it as a Cadillac Cetera. Does that mean it is a Cadillac? Ford jointly builds a car with Mazda (626 and Probe) with primarily Mazda drive train – does that make it a Ford? This policy is called “combination branding” when one parent company places the same brand on products that compete in the market place – i.e. Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Cadillac, etc. all sold as GM. In the case of GM they needed a nice midsized vehicle and the Opel was easy to brand a Cadillac. GM did sell cars in the US under the OPEL name plate for years, but stopped when sales did not meet expectations. Was GM hiding something from the public if they did not disclose that the Cadillac they were buying was really an Opel? This is the problem with branding (licensing) a product – the consumer may be buying something they believe is one brand – when in fact it is made, designed, and or engineered by a different company. Both companies can be owned by the same parent company – but are they the same?

That is the situation with WEBER carburetors today. Interco, Weber North American (or on eBay as Webercarbsdirect) has no affiliation (other than maintaining licensing and manufacturing agreements with Magneti Marelli) with the Italian designed and Spanish built Weber carburetors. But this licensing agreement means that Interco can legally use the Weber name. Continuing that line of reasoning they claim they are “genuine” and they may in fact be – legally. But are they “Genuine”?

In our opinion “Genuine” infers two things – that it is real and original. There is only one original Weber and that is the European produced, Italian designed, carburetor built in Spain. These carburetors were originally designed and engineered by the Weber Carburetor company in Italy. Consumers should be aware that what Weber North America is doing is importing a Solex designed carburetor from South America – branding it a Weber – and calling it a “Genuine” Weber. They reason that if Magneti Marelli owns the Solex factory then it can legally be called a “genuine” Weber. We will leave it up to the reader to decide for themselves whether they believe this is what a person would believe to mean “Genuine” (legally it says so).

Now Weber North America has taken it a step further (as of the Summer of 2011) and is now supplying the 32/36 DGV series and the 38 DGS series carburetors (not proud enough to say where they are made because it is China) and branding them as Weber's just as they did with the Solex Carb's from South America.

Below is a detail list of the models in question. To further complicate this situation are the carburetors that EMPI is importing. These carburetors are built in China and are, for lack of a better term, “copies” of the Italian designed carburetors. They use the same designations as the original with an “EPC” as a prefix to label them as “EPC” presumably an acronym for Empi Performance Carburetor.

European built Weber carbs - originally designed and engineered in Italy
by Weber and now being made in Spain (what most would call "GENUINE")
32/36 DGV
32/36 DGEV
32/36 DFEV
34ICT
38DGAS
40IDF
44IDF
48IDF
50IDF
40DCOE
45DCOE
48DCOE
50DCOE
55DCOE
"Similar" branded sold by Interco/WeberCarbsDirect– sold and/or built under license agreements:
32/36 DGV - no markings to indicate it's origin - not "made in Spain" - sticker branded
32/36 DGEV - no markings to indicate it's origin - not "made in Spain" - sticker branded
38/38 DGAS - no markings to indicate it's origin - not "made in Spain" - sticker branded
34 DGEC (solex carb) branded with a sticker to make it a Weber
36 DGEC (solex carb) branded with a sticker to make it a Weber
40IDF - no markings indicating its origin
44IDF - no markings indicating its origin
The following link shows the difference in the South American made vs. the Original European WEBER

http://www.clutchkitcenter.com/media/im ... arison.jpg (the solex version)

and here is one from the U.K. ( a PDF file )

http://www.webcon.co.uk/Downloads/Genuine%20Weber.PDF

This goes to show you the issue is not isolated to just the North American Market - these "similar" carbs are being sold worldwide.
The situation with Interco/Webercarbsdirect/NorthAmerican should be differentiated with that of EMPI - EMPI has never claimed their carburetors were "Genuine Weber" or even claiming them to be Weber's - they simply say (as they should) they are EMPI Carbs similar to the Weber carburetor.

EMPI carbs (own design) – built in China. Unlike Interco and its affiliates -
EMPI does not brand these as “WEBER” carburetors – they are branded as what they are - EMPI carburetors. Visually the EMPI carbs closely resemble the well known weber carburetors.
Known EMPI models of carburetors
· EPC 32/36e
· EPC 32/36m
· EPC 32/36a
· EPC 38/38e
· EPC 32/36f
· EPC 34
· EPC 40 HPMX
· EPC 44 HPMX

Summation:

In the end what does this all mean to the consumer. First you must understand what you are buying and why. The choices are: The Original Italian designed and European Built WEBER or the carburetors that are "Similar" from NorthAmericanWeber or EMPI.

Up until 2001 Weber carburetor conversions all utilitized the European Carburetors. While there where competitors - Dellorto, Mikuni, and Solex there was one undisputed leader - Weber of Italy. That has all changed with the Parent company Magneti Marelli now owning one of the oldest carburetor names in the business, and a former competitor, Solex. It is interesting to note that at Magneti Marelli's website the founding of the weber carburetor was to elminate having to buy carburetors from the French Solex carburetor company. While legally Magneti Marelli can allow branding - they seemly would allow NorthAmericanWeber/Interco/WeberCarbsDirect to take a frozen dinner and call it a Weber this certainly that calls into question the whole concept of branding.

So - when you buy - do you want the original? The WEBER carburetor that is legendary in its performance. A proven carburetor with a track record extending over 30 years. The Italian designed carburetor that was, and is, the benchmark by which all 2bbl carburetors are measured. Built in Europe to the same exacting standards that only the original European Weber carburetors can deliver on. Or - do you want a branded or other style of carb (usually without knowing your aren't getting the original European Weber).

The choice is simple. Be sure it says REDLINE to assure you that your "genuine" european WEBER carburetor is tuned and jetted for the absolute best value your money can buy.
REDLINE's use of the European WEBERS assures the consumer they are receiving the same high quality genuine WEBER carburetor that has gone into the conversion kits for over 30 years. Time and race proven - there is really only one "genuine" Weber carburetor - the Legendary European designed and built WEBER (made in Spain):

[fiatfactory]

.

[WYSpider]

Mine was made in Spain.

[MIGHTY 8]

I've seen original carburettors on Fiats which were Holley branded (licenza Weber) and made in Italy... from back in the 70's...I've got one too, it's the equivalent of a 32DCOF... as found on 124 Specials and Lancia Fulvia's...

I bought a stack of Bessell (Which are marked - made in Spain - licenced to Weber) 36DCNVA's which were OE for a Fench Simca.

but you won't find 'licenced to' or 'licenza Weber' on anything from China...

Did you find out what the carbs (44IDF) and manifold were?

SteveC

Hiya Steve,
Friend ran some measurement while I was on the phone and it appears they were actually 36's. Dual 36's. The manifold did have the "iconic" "waffle" pattern, but at this point, I highly doubt it too was a genuine 44 waffle manifold.

[bradartigue]

That Redline articles goes a long way in making the case that no one makes Webers any more. When it comes down to it a real Weber says "Made in Italy" on it and has the EW logo embossed in the side. It's neither shiny nor very smooth and they certainly do not say "Made in Spain" anywhere on them.

These days if you need a new carburetor you have to get what you can, a Spanish Weber or a Chinese knock-off and really both seem to work OK. For originality take the time and get a real Weber (they aren't rare) and spend $250 or so having a professional rebuild it.

[MrBlimp]

I want to rebuild the carburetor on my 78 124 Spider but I have no idea which rebuild kit to buy.

There are two stickers on the carb. One on the top and one on the side.

If I follow the information in the OP:

• 32/36 DGV - no markings to indicate it's origin - not "made in Spain" - sticker branded

• 32/36 DGEV - no markings to indicate it's origin - not "made in Spain" - sticker branded

• 38/38 DGAS - no markings to indicate it's origin - not "made in Spain" - sticker branded

My thought is it is this one:
32/36 DGEV - Automatic choke (E = Electrically-operated)
actually the left hand version: 32/36 DFEV

Any assistance is appreciated.

The top sticker is a logo (see image below):
W
the underline is also red

The side sticker states (see image below):
W WEBER
NORTH AMERICA
SERIAL # 32294
Warranty Void
if Removed

[SteinOnkel]

The parts in rebuild kits are really universal. I would order the one for the DGEV and call it a day.

As for counter-feit/real: Who cares? My knockoff 34ADF from Shenzhen works phenomenally. We've also had a set of genuine Made in Spain Webers (from Redline by the way) that were assembled wrong and full of metal shavings.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Steiny beat me to the punch, but here are my thoughts. The carb model number should be stamped on the lower base of the carb (where it attaches to the phenolic spacer and then the intake manifold), and it's on the side of the base that faces the intake cam housing. If it is a 32/36 DFEV, it should be stamped as such. The 32/36 DFEV was a very popular "upgrade" for the original carb, so this may be what it is.

It definitely looks like it could be a 32/36 DFEV given the overall shape and electric choke. Weber nomenclature sometimes makes sense and sometimes not, but the "D" is for "Doppio" or twin barrels, the "F" is for the left hand version, "E" is for electric choke as you note, and "V" stands for either Vertical or power Valve equipped, depending on who you ask.

"F" carbs on a Fiat have the float bowl towards the front (such as yours), while "G" versions have the float bowl to the rear.

However, I'm not convinced by the Weber stickers, especially ones that say, "North America". A real Weber would have the EW (for Eduardo Weber) logo on either the float bowl, or the top cover, or both. So, it might be a Chinese knockoff, which as Steiny points out, could be fine. The surface finish of the body of the carb also doesn't look like a Weber casting to me.

Clues that it's not the original setup are the very long studs to the intake manifold, the fuel filter with a bypass or return line, and the throttle cable setup. Plus, my recollection is that '78 spiders came with the 32ADFA carb.

Anyway, if you can find that model number stamped into the base of the carb, you should be able to order a rebuild kit for that. Note that sometimes the model number is obscured with grease or the like, and it sometimes takes a mirror and a strong light to be able to see the numbers/letters. Or just remove the carb and examine.

-Bryan

[MrBlimp]

However, I'm not convinced by the Weber stickers, especially ones that say, "North America". A real Weber would have the EW (for Eduardo Weber) logo on either the float bowl, or the top cover, or both. So, it might be a Chinese knockoff, which as Steiny points out, could be fine. The surface finish of the body of the carb also doesn't look like a Weber casting to me.

Clues that it's not the original setup are the very long studs to the intake manifold, the fuel filter with a bypass or return line, and the throttle cable setup. Plus, my recollection is that '78 spiders came with the 32ADFA carb.

-Bryan

I do not think it is original because in the pile of extra parts was a round carburetor air filter with an inlet that matches the heater exchange exhaust shield on the other side of the engine.

I was thinking my carburetor matched the part of the OP that states:
The North American carburetors are easily distinguished from the European Weber by several characteristics:
The Genuine European Weber have the trademark "W" stamped into the carburetor and is clearly marked with its origin "Made in Spain"
The only markings on the NorthAmerican Webers is a sticker. There are no markings indicating where it is made or who made it.
The casting on the Chinese made carburetors is very smooth. While you might assume that is better because if it's appearance they are not made using the same metal resulting in the appearance.
The North American Weber carburetor models 32/36 DGV, 32/36 DGEV, and 38 DGES all have a black choke element - all of the Redline Webers coming from Europe have a White choke element.

[SteinOnkel]

Oh yeah, I can second what Bryan said. My 1978 came with a 32ADFA. Which is a terrible carburetor, far too bloated with emissions stuff.

Food for thought: if you were to upgrade to a 34ADF (Chinese or drop like $800 for a genuine one) you would be able to use your stock air filter assembly. Which imo looks a lot better than the open aftermarket air filters. Doesn't flow as well, obviously.

My luck with rebuild kits actually solving anything is about 50/50. Make sure you tear it down and chuck it in an ultrasonic cleaner. I bought one a few weeks ago and as a test run I cleaned my old (broken) 32ADFA. That one had received the whole shop air/three cans of brake cleaner yadayada backyard mechanic special. Anywho, I was astonished how much crap came out of it after only 15 minutes in the ultrasonic. It is by far the best way to clean carburetors.

Cheers
Steiny

[18Fiatsandcounting]

My turn to second what Steiny said about cleaning. Here are a few of the more common issues that I've run across with fixing up Weber carbs (#1 being more common), other than just general cleaning:

1) Plugged up idle jets, or the wrong idle jet, or a broken/disconnected idle shutoff jet (not all carbs have this).
2) Float level too high or too low. Easy to adjust.
3) Plugged up accelerator discharge jet (the one that pokes into the primary and secondary barrels. A very tiny hole, easy to get plugged up with gas residue.
4) Air leaks between the carb and the intake manifold. Usually because of loose carb mounting nuts or a bad gasket. Very rarely due to warped surfaces, but it can happen.
5) Leaks around the accelerator pump discharge jet and the body. Usually because someone forgot the copper/aluminum gaskets.
6) Leaking diaphragms for things like the choke pull-off, power valve, etc. If your carb has these. Some rebuild kits have new diaphragms.
7) Worn throttle shaft spindles (source of air leaks and thus erratic idling). Can be fixed, but would cost more to fix than just buying a new Chinese knockoff carb.

-Bryan

[MrBlimp]

Two reasons I am thinking of a rebuild:

1. The car is very hard to start - I don't drive it every day and often not for a week or two, sometimes not for a month (when I do drive it every day it starts up without much problem and runs fine once the electronic automatic choke does its thing) - since I don't always run the car that often I put Sta-Bil in the gas every time I gas up - I also, quite often, have to use starter fluid to get it to run, which I am concerned about because I know you can damage an engine using too much of that stuff.

2. Every once in a while, especially on deceleration, or taking my foot off the gas, or when my foot is on the gas but I allow the revs to drop, or I try to increase speed without paying attention to the revs, I get a miss fire - very loud - if the hood is up and the air filter cover is off I get a nice flame up.

[MrBlimp]

Food for thought: if you were to upgrade to a 34ADF (Chinese or drop like $800 for a genuine one) you would be able to use your stock air filter assembly. Which imo looks a lot better than the open aftermarket air filters. Doesn't flow as well, obviously.

Cheers
Steiny

I don't want to use the original air filter, I like the look of the Weber style air filter better.

. . . a 32ADFA. Which is a terrible carburetor, far too bloated with emissions stuff.

One of the previous owners removed all the emissions stuff so bloated and flow isn't as big an issue.

[SteinOnkel]

Couple of thoughts here.

As for the bloating, I don't mean the peripheral emissions stuff on the rest of the engine. I mean inherent to the carburetor. Too many circuits, too many cooks in the kitchen. But that's moot anyways, doesn't sound like you would go back to a 32adfa anyways. They are also very hard to find (because they suck).

As for 1, the hard starting: This behavior is exactly what I have on my 1978 - with both the 32adfa and 34adf. I think the fuel just evaporates through some port when the car sits. If it's more than 7 days, the car will crank, cough, die. Then you have to crank for 30-45 seconds to fill the fuel bowl. If I drive the car every day, it fires right up. You could remedy this by installing an electric fuel pump, I suppose. Then you just sit there and run the pump without cranking the engine to fill the bowl. But I like the simplicity of the mechanical pump.

As for 2, that does not sound like a carburetor issue to me. What's happening is fuel is being ignited when one or more intake valves are open. Possible causes would be incorrect ignition timing or incorrect valve timing. Tell us about your distributor. Is it points? Maybe even dual points? If yes bin it and go electronic (1979-1980 dizzy is a drop in replacement). If no, take the cap off and suck on the vacuum line going to the carb. The rotor should move.

Cheers
Steiny

[MrBlimp]

Couple of thoughts here.
As for 2, that does not sound like a carburetor issue to me. What's happening is fuel is being ignited when one or more intake valves are open. Possible causes would be incorrect ignition timing or incorrect valve timing. Tell us about your distributor. Is it points? Maybe even dual points? If yes bin it and go electronic (1979-1980 dizzy is a drop in replacement). If no, take the cap off and suck on the vacuum line going to the carb. The rotor should move.

Cheers
Steiny

Single points - I was having trouble for about 2 years with the points losing their adjustments. Sometimes it would occur after one drive and sometimes after a few days of driving. The car would run great until I turned it off and then it wouldn't start because the points gap would be completely closed.

I bought a set of electronic points and associated coil but when I installed them the points fried. They sent me a replacement set but I never attempted to install them.

What I did eventually do was replace the plate the points sit on with one from another carb I have and that cured the loss of adjustment issue.

I think the plate I had was allowing the screws to loosen just enough to let the points close.