Straight into the deep end? Head Gasket?

[MMRMVA]

So, we have not even been into this for 20 days, and I fear we are in deep already. 1978 Spider, stock engine with new carb, not much else I can tell. I have not taken it far, really just down the road to the gas station and quick runs around the neighborhood to get a sense of how it runs. Nothing aggressive, but it started running very rough, and stalled out. Hard time getting it going again, but eventually did and got it back in the garage. Noticed low coolant, added some back in and ran it in the garage just for a few minutes, when we got some white smoke from the pipe (bad, right?), so I shut it down. Let it cool overnight, popped the radiator cap and it was still pressurized. Quick back to the forum and it seems like both of these are bad signs regarding a head gasket, and I read to check the oil, and sure enough the oil looks more like brown milk than black oil. I have gathered these are all signs of a bad head gasket. Talk about bad luck.

From what I have read I should try a combustion leak test and or radiator pressure test. Anything else I should be testing to help with diagnosis?

If it is really the head gasket, that does not seem like the first job to get into being pretty inexperienced. Advice?

[dinghyguy]

Have you changed the oil? you might do that and then see if the contamination reoccurs.

The head gasket per se is not hard to do, but that will lead to scope creep which may include:
timing belt and tensioner (recommended)
resurfacing the head (not a bad idea but $$)
valve job (also not a bad idea if compression is lowish and you have the head of anyway)
water pump and hoses

and then performance upgrades like:
decking the head for a bit more compression, porting and polishing
fancy cams and cam wheels
fancy headers leading to new exhaust......
upgraded rad for better cooling
nice new colored hoses
and more.

I would change the oil, test it a bit and see if your diagnosis is correct, then decide what additional items might be reasonable/affordable given age/milage/condition of car and what you actually want and then proceed.

cheers
dinghyguy

[MMRMVA]

Haha, love the scope creep. Some of that we planned for already. Resurfacing the head and valve job are additions, plus the extra time and learning, but that is most of the point with this car!

I thought to pull the spark plugs and use my inspection camera, I think #4 looks like water. Clear evidence?

All 4 cylinders 1,2,3,4, across the top. 3 looks damp, 4 is half flooded by my eye https://photos.app.goo.gl/jgLayK99mu2KK4e88
Four only, half water? https://photos.app.goo.gl/pfLc4WWtx8wfKGC86

[Nut124]

I cannot make any sense of the pictures.

Creamy oil is a pretty sure sign. So is white smoke out of the tail when starting after having sat for a while. Car shops have a coolant analyzer that looks for combustion gases in the coolant. Usually, one can smell the steaming coolant in the exhaust as well.

If it is a head gasket, it will keep getting worse removing any doubt.

I would also try to figure out why the gasket failed. Usually due to overheating. Test radiator fan, temp switch and thermostat. If the car is new to you, examine cooling system for "modifications".

[MMRMVA]

Thanks Nut. The pictures are my inspection camera (for running wires in walls, etc) through the spark plug holes. The series is holes 1-2-3-4 (like reading a book) and the other is just number 4 which seemed the likely point of failure, if I am seeing what I think I am. The yellow highlight looks like fluid to me.

[davidbruce]

What do the plugs themselves look like? Sometimes the cylinder with the water will give a steam clean effect to the plugs and the insulator will be cleaner in the affected cylinder. I would not be turning that engine over any more than I had to with that contaminated oil in it for fear of doing bearing damage. And as Nut said, it will only get worse. My understanding is these heads do not have a lot of extra material in the mating surface so I would only skim the head if it needed it and only the minimum I could get away with. Particularly one with unknown history. Obviously check the head and the block for flatness. I would do the timing belt for sure. After the gasket change flush the cooling system and refill with a 50-50 mix of the appropriate anti freeze. Drop the oil after a few minutes running after the new gasket to get rid of all the contamination. The job itself is not overly difficult. If you don't have a manual. Buy one or join mirafiori.com and download one from the library. Make sure you get the correct head gasket as there are several. Even if the engine numbers are correct the head may have been changed. You can check the number in the head. Check the gasket against the old one and the head itself. And to add to what Nut said. Check the thermostat for the correct orientation.

[dinghyguy]

any chance you could insert a wood stir stick into 4 and get a sample of the water? just to feel, smell etc and try and determine if that is coolant? That being the case all the comments above re headgasket replacement are true.
Oh and if you do decide to get the valves done you are then going to need to re shim the valves, for which a special tool (avail at the vendors) is really useful.
To add to your scope creep you can also have the valve covers polished or painted......

do go to Mirafiori and download the manual, plus the tips and tricks for timing belt etc. They have an excellent collection of information.

cheers
dinghyguy

[Spider951]

+1 on the likely need for new head gasket, based on white smoke and cappuccino (proper use of Italian descriptive word) oil.

However, if that diagnosis and course of action ends up being what you decide to do, another additional (mission creep) item to consider is a rebuild of the head. The oil seals on the valve stems tend to become very brittle after many years, causing poor sealing and therefore light blue-gray smoke, especially on crank up and idle (also causing carbon buildup on valves, etc). I replaced the head on my '81 about a year ago with a rebuilt one (I bought mine from Midwest-Bayless, but our other vendors can supply that also, or you can do the work yourself if you feel that you want to tackle that job - I did not). It was kind of $$, but I have little trust in my local gearheads to do much more than change a tire. I did save some money by just cleaning and lightly sanding the block myself (lots of elbow grease) before head gasket replacement (again, little trust in local machine shops or it was going to take forever from the few good ones in the region to give it a skim).

And as mentioned by others, replace the timing belt while in the neighborhood.

[MMRMVA]

Thanks all. "Cappuccino" is right https://photos.app.goo.gl/8iGbGzG38pmMDgZJA Based on the feedback here, and a few local friends that came to take a look, we're going to go for it. Ordered a lot of the parts mentioned on this thread, and will document the process from a "newbie perspective" which might help others out in the future.

[Spider951]

Sounds good. I was a rank novice at cylinder head removal and head gasket replacement. Toughest part for me was cleaning the block and getting the alignment just right when putting the head back on (helped to have an assistant and another set of eyes on it). Photo documentation and labelled plastic bags are very useful - saved my butt several times in re-assembly. Get a decent torque wrench.

BTW, I did not have a blown head gasket when I replaced the head. Thus, I was able to do compression and leak down tests to evaluate the general condition of the block, cylinders, rings, etc before tear down - the numbers were good enough to trust that the bottom was OK. I guess you won't have that advantage, assuming a blown gasket wouldn't allow pressure up (??). I also did most of this with the engine removed from the car.

Keep us posted.

[MMRMVA]

(Warning: long post coming up).
Again, thank you all for the wisdom and encouragement to take on this job! Also a shout out to ELDEST Builds https://www.youtube.com/@ELDESTBuilds for some awesome videos that I have watched many times along the way.

My son is still in high school, so we waited until his winter break to really dive into the head gasket job. This is our very fist job like this, so I am hopeful this kind of post helps others. I do have a couple of questions along the way, which I will put in ** **. We are looking at the exposed cylinder head as of last night, and hope to keep going this afternoon. I am keeping a parts and price list if anyone is interested in that as well.

So far we;
1 - Drained both oil (sorry, the cappuccino) and coolant

2 - Removed all of the coolant hoses, and thermostat, all of which are being replaced with new, including the burp kit for refilling

3 - A friend recommended hitting all of the rusty bolts with Kroil each day while we worked, and that stuff seems to work magic!

4 - Pulled the radiator fan (had been replaced by PO), radiator (flushed it well) and the reservoir (added this to the replace list)

5 - removed water pump belt (to be replaced), timing belt cover, made sure everything was at top dead center. Everything seems to line up well there. Took off the distributor at this point as well. It was leaking oil up the shaft, so we have that rubber gasket/insert to replace and hopefully stop that issue. I read to put the car in 5th at this point so things don't move, loosened the tensioner bearing (being replaced) and removed the timing belt (to be replaced)

6 - PO had put in a new carb, that came off next, along with the fuel filter (to be replaced) and lines. We had been labeling well all along, but here we missed a step. **It looks like there was a second fuel line going back through the firewall, but not used in my car right now. Did the old carb have a fuel return?**

7 - Intake manifold removal was next, and I think the most time consuming part of the job so far! With everything tucked up tight over there. I read in my shop manual to remove the dip stick, mine was on there very well, so we had to remove the alternator to get at it. Finally got it off. Back to the intake: finding the right length extension and ratchet, then finding the bolt heads, then the Tetris like maneuverer to get the thing off. Ooof. We got it off. We did NOT remove the vapor separator, which I read later would have helped, but causes it's own headaches. Here I think we found our first problem. The gasket on the intake was in bad shape, in particular by #4, where the coolant hose comes into that corner (is it flowing in or out there, either toward or away from the heater?). I think that looks like a spot where coolant was getting into my #4 cylinder, which happens to be where my inspection camera found a lot of fluid through the spark plug hold. Links;
Intake gasket, front end: https://photos.app.goo.gl/LiECTY59Ry5qB6S86
Close up on #4: https://photos.app.goo.gl/2Zs7qfZBKgt7Tkiz8
Vapor separator to carb hose: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nb4PaK6Hdpr7AZJ86 -> I doubt this should have this gunk it in
**I found a post on here from 2012, from nelsonj "La Bella Ferrara" that suggests installing the intake onto the head before installing the head. I am not at that point yet, but is that viable? It feels like it would save a LOT of time in that area, and let me get the intake torque just right without fighting the angle.

8 - Exhaust manifold is badly rusted, and just breaking those bolts free took a little but of time, thankfully the Kroil did some of it's job. Replacing this and the exhaust pipe went on the list for another time.

9 - Removed that heater tube and water pump (being replaced). The water pump seems to spin freely, and while a little funky, not horrible looking. Should I sell/donate these old parts? The view into the cooling passageway looks like something from the Titanic;
Water Pump:https://photos.app.goo.gl/AnEkTRexHjGehdAU6
Front of block: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lwjtd94AgWc3Y5ez7 --> multiple flushes once this is all back together!

10 - Cam covers came off with no problem, but both gaskets were torn at the back post. These were leaking when we got the car. One of them has this epoxy like material (hard as the metal) inside, and I found a little crack on the outside, so I expect that is the PO trying to keep that from getting worse.
One of the busted gaskets: https://photos.app.goo.gl/CA5jY9ZkcWWUeFQB9
Epoxy: https://photos.app.goo.gl/KqPMQf5FPkWhkKJe9
Crack: https://photos.app.goo.gl/1uUQhM8itWc37hC16
**One of the posts was missing that cardboard washer, but in my gasket kit from Vick's, there are 4 metal washers that look like they might be a replacement?**

11 - Removed the Cam boxes, yet again bad looking gaskets, especially on the passenger side what was left of it. If you look at the residual oil left in those wells on the head, you can see in the picture two were cappuccino and two looked almost like regular (black) oil. I am not an expert, but other than the oil issues, things seem to be clean in here.
Passenger side head with oil: https://photos.app.goo.gl/jgX56gpjRongyFEE8
Passenger side cleaned up a little: https://photos.app.goo.gl/K2v4UJiumscLBySN6
Driver side cleaned up, better gasket but all oil was foul: https://photos.app.goo.gl/5x5La7JwWZUxNKtm9
**those two ports in the middle, are those coolant? They are all junked up I wonder if anything was even getting through there.**
**What are those 4 silver bolts on the top of the head? Are those from the removed smog stuff? That was gone when we got it.**

So here is where we stand right now, looking down at the head and feeling like this was a good decision undertaking this adventure. One, it was the entire point of getting this car, to learn and experience this with my son, and two, everything we have seen along the way suggests it needed to be done!

Head: https://photos.app.goo.gl/farm7CtnxudBPp6s9

Onto the next!

-Matt & Ryan

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Looks very interesting so far, and I'll be interested in seeing what the combustion chambers look like when you pull the head off. Perhaps I'm just OCD, but I loosen the 10 head bolts in the reverse order of the tightening sequence given in the workshop manuals. Crack each bolt, then go around and back them off to 40 ft lbs, then 20 ft lbs, then all the way loose.

**It looks like there was a second fuel line going back through the firewall, but not used in my car right now. Did the old carb have a fuel return?**

Yes, except for the very early 1438 cars, there was a fuel return from the carb (or the output of the fuel injection pressure regulator) back to the gas tank. Sounds like that was plugged off by the PO in your car.

The gasket on the intake was in bad shape, in particular by #4, where the coolant hose comes into that corner (is it flowing in or out there, either toward or away from the heater?). I think that looks like a spot where coolant was getting into my #4 cylinder, which happens to be where my inspection camera found a lot of fluid through the spark plug hold.

This port on the intake manifold is for the coolant activated automatic choke. If the PO removed that, then it's not surprising that that passageway got gunked up. I'm still thinking you have a head gasket issue, though. As for coolant flow out of that small port on the intake manifold, the coolant comes out of that port, then up to the automatic choke on the carb (if it has one), then back over to the small nipple on the very rear of the heater pipe right below the exhaust manifold, then into the intake of the water pump.

**I found a post on here from 2012, from nelsonj "La Bella Ferrara" that suggests installing the intake onto the head before installing the head. I am not at that point yet, but is that viable? It feels like it would save a LOT of time in that area, and let me get the intake torque just right without fighting the angle.

I agree with La Bella Ferrara. I always install the intake (and exhaust) manifolds on the head first, then lower the complete head back onto the block. Make sure the two little dowels between block and head are good, and I always turn the engine so that none of the pistons are at the top of their stroke. Avoids banging an open valve into a piston crown as you lower the head on, which often bends the valve.

Should I sell/donate these old parts?

Water pumps are cheap, so I would get a new one. Some vendors also sell a kit which includes water pump, timing belt, and timing belt tensioner bearing. A good way to go.

**One of the posts was missing that cardboard washer, but in my gasket kit from Vick's, there are 4 metal washers that look like they might be a replacement?**

I've only seen fiber washers, but never metal ones. Can you show us a picture of what Vick's look like?

**those two ports in the middle, are those coolant? They are all junked up I wonder if anything was even getting through there.**
**What are those 4 silver bolts on the top of the head? Are those from the removed smog stuff? That was gone when we got it.**

Yes, those are coolant ports. In general, your engine looks to be one where the coolant was not changed regularly (all too common, unfortunately) and perhaps not driven all that much to get things warmed up and really circulating. And yes, those 4 silver bolts are "plugs" for where the air injection system lines used to connect. Also known as the smog pump. People remove them, but honestly, they don't really affect performance although the pumps themselves tended to corrode and lock up over time. Perhaps that's why it was removed.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted!
-Bryan

[MMRMVA]

Bryan,
Thank you for the answers and tips, super helpful!

Here are those washers out of the Vick Autosport kit https://www.vickauto.com/parts/full-gas ... u-40-4124/, which look to be red in the picture. Here are the metal ones with the cover and bolts. Seems to fit but I don't want to mess anything up. https://photos.app.goo.gl/592jKjq2hHUgGkGC8

I sent them an email to clarify, because I also had a question about one of the water neck o-ring (also in the above photo) which seems smaller than the old on in the car. Could be compression and age warped the old one.

Yes, I have a new water pump to install when we rebuild. I just did not know if folks want/can use old stuff that might still have life. I hate just tossing things sometimes.

-Matt

[Nut124]

Matt, did you mark and bag the cam buckets/shims for reassembly in the same location? If not, you are looking at valve clearance adjustment and shim purchases.

Removing the cam boxes likely could have been avoided.

I also always install the intake on the head before installing head. When installing the head, I like to place 2 pieces of 3/8 nylon or oak flat stock on top of the gasket/bloc to lower the head onto to rest before trying to align with the dowels. Just make sure what ever flat stock you use is clean and does not shed slivers. I then slide one piece out and align one end onto the dowel, then the other.

Like Bryan stated, move crank off TDC for this so valves do not interfere w pistons.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Like Bryan stated, move crank off TDC for this so valves do not interfere w pistons.

Forgot to mention, but Nut reminded me: Once you get the head back on the block, make sure (in this order) the cam timing marks are aligned, the hole in the aux. shaft pulley is at roughly the 1 o'clock position, and the engine is brought back to TDC on the #1 (and #4) cylinders. Then you'll be ready for the new timing belt.

As for those metal washers from Vick's, I have no idea what those are for. Never seen them. The red fiber washers are the ones you want for the holddown screws for the cam covers.

-Bryan