Straight into the deep end? Head Gasket?

[MMRMVA]

This forum is amazing, I am so glad we found it. We appreciate you all!

Matt, did you mark and bag the cam buckets/shims for reassembly in the same location? If not, you are looking at valve clearance adjustment and shim purchases.

Yes sir! Individual baggies, each labeled as Intake 1-4 & Exhaust 1-4.

We took the head off a few days ago, but I was too embarrassed to post anything because of a major blunder. All is well now, so I can "show my face again" and hopefully pay something forward in the process. Following Bryan's removal process, I set up the torque wrench and started on the bolts...snapped one, ugh weird, moved on, ok, then snapped another and my son say's "are you tightening them!" OMG! I was. I literally fell to the garage floor on my knees. The rest came out just fine.

Obviously no one is going to do something as stupid as this, but we have successfully removed two broken off head bolts after HOURS of work, and much frustration. So if it happens during something less stupid, maybe someone can use this thread. One actually came out with those extractor kits (GraBit, etc.), I was shocked. We laid heavy paper across the block surface, moved off TDC, and used washers and duct tape to protect the block if the bit slipped at all (it did, and the washers did the job, no damage). But after a few hours or set up and drilling, it started moving! Came right out. Phew.

Second one, nope, we got it to move one rotation out and then the bit broke off into the drilled hole. Really hard to drill drill-head material (I tried), so we phoned a friend down the road. Pushed the car to his house this morning, he welding a nut to the exposed part, and it came out. Christmas Miracle! If this ever happens again, I am going straight to the weld process, it was faster and higher success potential in my opinion. I read a few posts here that suggested it as well. We had new head bolts on the list anyway, sure...keep telling myself this.

We pushed it back to our house and got to cleaning surfaces. Here are some shots of what we found under the head;

Untouched block, with gasket that looks like wet cardboard & fluid in #4 as anticipated: https://photos.app.goo.gl/2iwcMLoHymN3mWEt6
Underside of the head, more cardboard: https://photos.app.goo.gl/nAFdvz7T2Ec1HjHZ7
The one that needed welding: https://photos.app.goo.gl/JjxoT9bFTYt2xbBUA
Please work: https://photos.app.goo.gl/afCsHaczBALyXBFa7
God is kind: https://photos.app.goo.gl/MYiwbRCmiLBV56ef6
Wiped the block down, nothing more yet: https://photos.app.goo.gl/taMpVSAjJgTSVyBT9

Not really knowing what to expect, things seems fairly clean to me. Time for prep work to clean surfaces and check flatness.

I hope all have a happy holiday!

PS - those washers, I found a video by ELDEST that suggested they are indeed for the hold down screws. Vicks is on vacation, but I'll report back once they respond to my inquiry.

Cheers!
-Matt

[Nut124]

Does the head gasket look like the fire ring on #1 has pushed into the bore a bit between #1 and #2 cyls?

[MMRMVA]

Nut, this spot? It is a little bent.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gRcLiDAYXWoGwFxq5

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Obviously no one is going to do something as stupid as this,

Ha! You have not met me, as I have done many things as stupid as this. And even more stupid...

Second one, nope, we got it to move one rotation out and then the bit broke off into the drilled hole. Really hard to drill drill-head material (I tried), so we phoned a friend down the road. Pushed the car to his house this morning, he welding a nut to the exposed part, and it came out.

I bow in your general direction, as a broken head bolt is not something that I have come across, nor that I would like to. But that's one of the things about the 2L block that I don't like: The head bolts go into the coolant gallery, and it just seems like a recipe for corrosion. Earlier (1438?) engine had blind head bolt holes, so no corrosion issue.

Wiped the block down, nothing more yet:

Check the deck of the block next to the bolts that you removed by welding a nut to them: The surface seems to be scored a little, although maybe it looks worse in the pictures than in person. If you do have gouges in the block deck that would extend under the fire ring of the head gasket, these would need to be dressed up. Perhaps a light skimming of the deck of the block is in order, but that would require removing the block from the car. Scope creep...

-Bryan

[MMRMVA]

Quick update, spent many days scraping off gasket material and cleaning surfaces. Waiting for head bolts to arrive, decided to put on the brand new water pump, broke off a bolt. Sigh (another one?). It came out easily with the extraction kit from Lowe’s, but still have PTSD from the broken head bolts. Only after did I read that the 14 Lb torque in the Haynes manual is BS. So now we need to go find some matching bolts and maybe move forward vs. backward. Does anyone have a reasonable torque for these? <10?

In some good news the block and the head cleaned up and tested flat with the feeler gauge.

Taking a few days off from the car, we are going fishing tomorrow instead.

Cheers!

[MMRMVA]

PS- the metal washers are indeed for the covers, Vick said “Yes they are the metal washers now and we've found really great success with them.”

[Nut124]

The water pump and front, rear covers bolts I think are M6. They just need not to leak. Nots structural loads. I go hand tight not to exceed about 6 lbsft. Be careful on the head M8 bolts as well. The aluminum strips easy. I avoid using power tools and stay below 12lbs.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I agree with Nut on the torques. I stay below 6 ft lbs on the M6 bolts, and since that's hard to measure, I do it with an inch-pound torque wrench and stay below 70 in-lbs or so. On M8 bolts into aluminum, I am willing to go higher than Nut, perhaps to 18 ft lbs or so.

I never use an impact wrench on any assembly process. The only time I use one is to REMOVE the crankshaft pulley nut, the 6 flywheel bolts, and the nut on the yoke at the rear of the transmission, as these are often well over 100 ft lbs. Even then, I only use an impact wrench if I can't loosen them by hand.

And yes, unfortunately a number of the listed fastening torques in the Haynes and other manuals, as well as original Fiat workshop manuals, are flat out wrong. Caution is urged, and if something seems out of line, it's good to check.

For the 4 water pump bolts, I use a thread sealant on these, and either new copper washers or ones that have been dressed up with emery paper (just run both sides across 220 grit or so, in a circular motion).

On the cam cover fiber vs. metal washers, thanks for that info from Vick's. A tip: Don't overtighten the cam cover securing screws. Sometimes they are ridiculously tighten which just warps the aluminum and leads to stripped threads.

-Bryan

[MMRMVA]

I appreciate the advice. Quite the learning process! The water pump bolts, M6 8.8 Grade?

Just in case, here are my planned specs for the rest of the bolts;
Head bolts: I bought a new kit from Midwest Bayless, and they say; "Recommended straight-torque process in three steps: All bolts to 20ft-lbs then 40ft-lbs then 58ft-lbs.", so I will go with that recommendation.
Manifolds: book spec says 18 ft-lb. for both the nuts and M8 bolts, so maybe I will split the difference between Nut (12) & Bryan (18) and go with 14 ft-lb. to match the camshaft spec.
Camshaft housing: book spec says 14 ft-lb. for the M8 bolts
Cam covers nothing in the book at all, so based on Bryan's feedback, just hand tighten
Water pumpbook is wrong and my torque does not go below 10, so I will try hand tight with a much smaller ratchet with new bolts.

Wish us luck!

[Nut124]

Head bolts: I always check clamping distance to be sure torque develops from clamping, not from the thread bottoming out.

The test goes like this: After the head is in place, take the bolts less the steel washers and drive them in by hand. I like to have them go far enough in for the bolt head to touch the alu head w/o turning too hard. This ensures that the torque upon tightening is from clamping, not from bad threads.

Alternatively, before the head is in place you can install the bolts into the block by hand, as far as they go and measure clamping distance vs the gasket, head and washer combined thickness. I like to make sure there is at least 50 thou or so for bolt stretch, measurement error.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

A few more thoughts in addition to what Nut mentioned:

- I looked through about 10 workshop and aftermarket manuals, and none of the tables listed any tightening torques for bolts smaller than M8. It's like Fiat didn't consider them. Sometimes in the text you can find references to 14 ft lbs for M6 bolts, but we already corrected that error.

- You can go a bit tighter on the cam cover "bolts" than hand tight. Just hand tighten then give it another 1/4 to 1/2 turn with a wrench.

- I really don't know the grade on the M6 bolts for the water pump. They don't need to be hardened steel like the head bolts, but I wouldn't use an ungraded bolt from Home Depot. Since the water pump bolts go into block which is iron, if you do use a good quality bolt, you don't need to be as fearful of the 6 or 7 ft lbs limit, but I see no good reason to go higher than this.

- I think part of the confusion on the manifold bolts arises from the fact that Fiat originally used M8 studs and nuts for these, but then later switched to M8 bolts. Once the stud is firmly inserted in the head at the factory, you can go a bit tighter on the manifold nuts since both stud and nut are steel. Still, I wouldn't go any higher than 20 ft lbs on studs/nuts, and 14 to 16 is probably good for steel bolts that go into an aluminum head and may have to be removed multiple times over the lifetime of the head.

-Bryan

[MMRMVA]

We made good progress over the last few days, highlights;
-we found matching M6 bolts at O'Reilly and used those for the water pump; my son put them to his "those feel tight" setting after I set up an experiment with the torque wrench set to 10lbs and another wrench to "figure out where 10 is", and he got a feel for it. We'll watch these seals
-our head gasket did not fit over the dowels, which I read here (and elsewhere) is an issue with some of the current gaskets (mine came in a full kit from Vicks), I did not feel comfortable trying to drill them out; my son suggested sanding them, and I have a round metal file that did the job after about 10 mins on each (we went slow). We did Nut's test (thank you!), looked good. Head went on without issue after this, we did install the intake manifold beforehand (to 14 ft-lb), after breaking those head bolts, getting these to 58 ft-lb made us nervous, but without cause.
-cam housings went on ok, but those tappets are a little tricky. I would love to hear how ya'll do this. After trial and error, our best method was put them in the housing, each hold two with fingers as I lowered the housing and lined them up before the fell out...took many attempts. Exhaust was second and went faster (must be practice)
-Encountered our first potential issue; one of our cam cover screws when removing it previously, the post came out with it, and when installing it the thread would bite/then slip, so I am worried it is not grabbing well. Tightened to what felt good, and stopped. Called a friend and he is coming tomorrow to see if we can re-tap it, or use helicoil. I expect this will leak oil until we address it. Any advice?
-per advice, lined up the cams, the aux and crank, in that order, put the car in 5th gear to hold the crank
-exhaust manifold, heater pipe (what I call it), timing belt (other threads cover this, not bad), drive belt, belt cover, water neck and water-t; went on with (limited) drama

Tomorrow we install the coolant system, distributor and carb, and maybe try to fire it up. Is there anything I should be sure to do before turning it over? I read some suggestions that say to crank the engine with no spark plugs to get the oil moving...maybe make an Italian prayer as well?

To be a new thread; I could not get into the distributor (could not get that peg out) to replace the seal inside, and we know that leaks oil. We will have to address this.

I so appreciate you all!

-Matt

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Sounds like good progress! To answer a few questions:

I use your method to install the camboxes. Put the cambox gasket on the head, put all 4 tappets in, hold the cambox with both hands so that two fingers of your left hand hold two buckets, and two fingers of your right hand hold the other two buckets. Gently lower onto the head so the springs are up inside the buckets. Insert all 10 bolts, then slowly tighten up from side to side and front to back so that the cambox doesn't get skewed as it gets tightened down. Torque to 14 ft lbs. Since I'm OCD, I torque in the same general pattern as the 10 head bolts.

As for stripping a cam cover stud, this happens, and helicoil is the best way to repair. I've also seen people just Loctite the stud into position, which I guess would work because the cover "screws" don't get that tight.

Removing the steel pin in the distributor gear is very tricky, and I am successful only about two-thirds of the time. Unless that oil seal really needs to be replaced, I prefer to leave them be. Sometimes I have to drill them out and put in a new pin, but that requires precision drilling so you don't mess up the pin hole in the gear.

For first start up: Yes, remove the plugs, and turn the engine over by hand several rotations of the crankshaft. You can do this with a 1.5" socket on the crankshaft nut, or 38mm if you prefer metric. Once you have verified that nothing is binding, turn it over with the starter for about 5 seconds or so. Verify that you see oil pressure on the gauge, or the idiot light goes out. Put the plugs back in, and fire that bad boy up.

Don't forget to add coolant before starting (yes, I have done this...). I use just water on first start up until I am sure there are no leaks or other issues, then when all appears well, I drain the water and refill with antifreeze/water. Almost inevitably, you will get some oil in the coolant passageways, but that does no harm and will flush out over time.

Run the engine for a few hundred miles and retorque the head bolts. Depending on the head gasket, they can loosen quite a bit. I just retorqued the head bolts on an engine that I rebuilt back in October, and they had gone from 58 ft lbs to about 30.

-Bryan

[MMRMVA]

She lives! Finished the remaining work, mostly without issue (new thermostat from Vicks is a little different shape and I needed to cut the new bottom hose, that is documented elsewhere here). Refilled oil and coolant (pain even with the burp kit!). Per Bryan's tip, cranked it with no plugs, checked oil, installed plugs, pushed it outside and the battery was too dead (would crank and stop). Planned to replace it anyway, to the store, new battery and turned right over! We were so proud. I only let it run for about 30 seconds as it was running rough and we did not have time to mess with it anymore. Making a sort of clicking sound, video below. I would love any thoughts on the sound. I have not checked timing, or anything else, we had no time and just pushed it back inside.

First start after head gasket replacement (and other stuff)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/G64tdaaPsDEqhDmg8

Last day off from work tomorrow, so I'll keep at it!

Thanks again for everything,
Matt

[18Fiatsandcounting]

She lives! .....Making a sort of clicking sound, video below. I would love any thoughts on the sound.

Awesome, Matt (and son)! It sounds to me like the clearance between camshafts and tappet buckets is too large. Were these checked and/or adjusted? 0.017" on the intake side and 0.019" on the exhaust side, although some folks like to run these a bit tighter, like 0.013" and 0.015". If the clearances are larger than 0.025" or so, you will hear clicking. It doesn't really hurt anything, but it does mean your valves aren't opening up as much as they should, plus that annoying sound. Truth be told, most Fiat engines have a little bit of tappet clicking, although yours sounds louder than most.

Just to be sure, I sometimes remove the fan belt and run the engine for A VERY SHORT TIME. This removes the alternator and water pump from the equation, and you obviously don't want to run the engine without a water pump for more than a few seconds. But, if the clicking goes away, then it's something with the water pump or alternator or the belt that needs attention.

Keep us posted! A beautiful experience, to take an engine apart and then have it fire up when it's all back together. At least for gear-heads like me.

-Bryan