Blown head gasket?

[TulsaSpider]

Ok I am in real trouble ... A friend and I spent all day changing the head gasket. We took the head in to check for straightness they said it was in very good shape. The old gasket looked ok however and I was thinking this isn't right...
We cleaned everything and all surfaces looked good. The head shop recommended the copper spray so we used that as well.
We put it all back together. I torqed the head bolts to the 56 pounds in center pattern out graduated sequence it stated in my book. Started up and ran just fine. I let it warm up 15 min no problem. I was so happy!! Then I went for a test drive and suddenly there was smoke billowing from everywhere.... I opened the hood and oil had belched out the vapor hose. I did clean the trap and hose out and installed a new gasket. That long bolt btw any chance that goes into a water jacket? It was pretty rusted....
I took lots of pics and I'll post them as soon as I get them loaded
Thanks for any help


Clark

[rlux4]

Clark, when you initially started it up, did it get up to normal operating temp. and stay there? Have you rechecked the head bolts torque?
Ron

[TulsaSpider]

Ron it didn't get up to "normal" but it got past 120 or so, the hoses were pressurized an were pretty warm. I haven't re-torqued yet, shouldn't it be a few days before you do that?

[TulsaSpider]

after head was lifted off, yes I forgot to drain the block



#4


#3


#2


#1





more detailed images here http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/ ... placement/

[So Cal Mark]

Clark
from your pics it looks like the leak was into #1 since the piston is clean. The top side of the gasket doesn't show signs of a leak. Were you able to drain the old oil and get the muck out of the pan? How's the oil level now, is it overfull on the dipstick?

[rlux4]

I guess a better way to say it would be, have you checked that the torques are OK. A loose bolt could allow coolant to get sucked into a cylinder.
Ron

[So Cal Mark]

did you clean the threads on the bolts and block to make sure the head is actually tight? The only other time I've seen water in the oil is from a bolt that was too long used in the water outlet. Those back bolts can crack the head if they are too long, and allow coolant into the oil

[TulsaSpider]

I will check the torque again in the morning. Mark, the threads looked fine. When I removed them they had some oil on them. I didn't drain the oil yet, I changed it on Wed. I'll do that in the morning. Remember my dipstick never gets into the oil....I still can't figure that one out..... I couldn't determine what size tap to look for. I guess I can investigate buying a set. Maybe the parts stores loan them out? I am not sure. Mark you are not saying that there are different length head bolts are you?? If there are I didn't notice.... they all looked the same... What about adding another hardened washer? We did loose one washer and replaced it with as thick as we could find but not quite as thick as the others...
So the cleanest piston is probably the one that was leaking? interesting...
The old head gasket had no signs of leakage...
I am still not convinced this is even my problem but what else could it be????? Is there another place to look? Also what do you mean by water outlet?? It sucks cause I don't even know the source of the issue......
Anything else you guys can glean from the pics? What's all that crap on the #4 valves? Does all this look like normal wear?
helpless in Tulsa....

[So Cal Mark]

not different length head bolts, the water outlet bolts. The water outlet sits in the middle of the head facing the front. The rear bolts that hold that down can crack the head if they are too long.
If you don't know how much oil is in the pan, how do you know it's not overfull? An extra qt will result in oil pouring out of the breather hose at 4k rpm and above.

Not to deride you, but not knowing the source of the problem can cause results like this. That's why I suggested using compressed air to pressurize each cyl to check for leaks before pulling the head. The buildup on #4 is usually caused by worn valve guides allowing oil to be sucked into the cylinder

[TulsaSpider]

I measured the amount of oil I put back in at the oil change. it's about right if I can see a little oil on the bottom of my dipstick. I drove it for two days after the oil change.. After it belched the oil at about 20 MPH so I was not revving it I was babying it.. I cleaned it up after that and ran it at idle for a few min then revved the motor some, and could not reproduce the oil belching effect. There didn't seem to be an increased level... The oil could be an anomoly of some sort trapped air maybe I dunno?? It belched out a good amount, it ran out the air cleaner assy and onto the pavement as well after I had stopped. I am guessing water may have increased the level????
I didn't mess with the water outlet. Would I be able to see a crack if there is one if I remove it??


I just thought it really wouldn't help me that much to know which cylinder was leaking. As always I am grateful for your advise.
Clark

[So Cal Mark]

an extreme amount of blow-by will cause the oil to get pumped out of the breather tube. Do you get oil smoke from the breather while the engine is running?
The water outlet bolts will crack at the bottom of the bolt hole, so you can't see the crack. But pressurized water from the cooling system will make its' way down the threads. I've only seen this once, so it's pretty rare

[TulsaSpider]

Yes I do get some.

[ventura ace]

Clark,
Before you take anything apart, I recommend that you do a compression test or a
leak down test on all 4 cylinders. This may help tell you what's happening.
The clean #1 piston suggestions that there is something different going on in
that cylinder. Perhaps water is leaking into the #1 intake port from the front
water port on the intake manifold. Did you put sealer around the water ports
on the intake gasket? And did you see anything strange about the intake gasket
when you took it apart? Is water disappearing from the coolant system? If
this is the scenario, then I'm not sure how water is getting down into the
crankcase, unless somehow steam from water leaking into #1 cylinder blows past
the rings, then condenses somewhat in the crankcase. Are you seeking smoke out
the exhaust, also, or just coming out of the crankcase breather hose?

Oil belching out the crankcase breather hose could mean that the oil level (or
oil and water level) in the oil pan is too high. If you're not sure how much
oil (or oil and water) is in the engine, then drain it out and measure. You
shouldn't get much over 3 quarts (and the other quart is in the oil filter).

Did you clean and chase all the threads on the headbolts and in the block? If they're not cleaned and properly oiled, you may not be getting proper squeeze on the head gasket (some of the tightening torque is lost in friction to overcome the dirty threads). Be sure to put oil under the bolt heads, also.

Good luck in finding the answers!

Alvon

[TulsaSpider]

Well the problem I had before I changed the head gasket may not be the problem I encountered last night.
The old intake gasket looked good there was a little pitting on th intake surface here and there, mostly around the center. I used the copper spray on all mating surfaces but I didn't use silicone on the intake. I didn't see any smoke out of the exhaust during the warm up period. before the head gasket change yesterday Water did not seem to be disappearing, but it seemed to be a slow leak and it doesn't take too much water to contaminate. I am going to try to find a tap today. The head bolts were already oily when I took them out.
thanks for the clues

[So Cal Mark]

are you removing the head again? Before I did that I'd try to properly diagnose the problem; pressurize the cooling system, pressurize the cylinders to check for leakage. Otherwise you are on a snipe hunt. Water or coolant getting into a cylinder or port will clean that area, that's why #1 looks like the source compared to the other 3 pistons. The odd thing is that the combustion chamber on 1 doesn't look clean. That could be that the leak just started and the cc didn't have time to get de-carbonized.