How to free up Crank shaft?

[NickSpider]

What is the easiest way to free up the crank shaft?

Also I need to change the oil pan gasket, once the pan is removed will I be able to tell visually why the crankshaft is not moving?

[So Cal Mark]

if the crankshaft is frozen, you have some potentially big trouble. More common is stuck pistons which still is a big problem. They can stick because of rust, or severe overheating causing seizure. Either way the cyl walls may be damaged.

[mbouse]

1.pull the spark plugs and dump in about an ounce of transmission fluid into each cylinder.
2.drink a six pack.
3.repeat from step #1 when sober.

after the third six pack in three days time, grab a 1 1/2" socket on the end of a long breaker bar and give the crank pulley a good pull. if the crank will not budge, refer to Mark's comments above.

step #2 may be substituted by mere waiting 24 hours before repeating from step #1

[NickSpider]

ok if I have done the steps above and still cannot get it to budge, what do I need to do?

I am about to jack it up and remove the oil pan (needs a new gasket), could this be part of the problem? Not having any oil in it?

I have a hard time thinking the cylinders are rusted, all the internals of the engine I have checked out have been spotless so far.

How complicated would it be to open the engine up, or should I take it to a mechanic and let them fix the problem?

[baltobernie]

If the crank won't turn after a good soaking, I'd take a critical look at the other engine components. The oil pan gasket is the least of your troubles.

You didn't indicate what engine you have, or where you're located, but if you're near other Spider owners and have a popular engine, I'd suggest considering an engine swap at this point.

[pope]

Now is the time to take the lower end of the engine apart. Did you say that it lacked oil?
My bet is that a rod bearing on the crankshaft is seized due to low oil. But no matter what is wrong in the lower end, you will still want to take it apart. Time for a rebuild and yes you can do it, with some help from some machine shops.
Unless of course you are just driving the spider into the ground and want a quick fix.
There is more than enough brain power here to help you through this.

[racydave]

Worse case scenerio, pull the head.Tap pistons with wood and hammer.Try some penetrating fluid. I would do everything else first, even a push, and low speed clutch poping! If you end up doing serious work, Id be tempted to pull the engine.

[majicwrench]

Nickspider,
How did the engine seize in the first place?? HAd it sat for a long time?? Did it seize while driving??
A frozen engine is a bad engine. You can soak, pry, drag, pray, whatever, the bottom line, this engine needs to come out and be repaired or replaced. If you like a good challenge and want to learn some new skills, do it yourself. If you would rather do other things with your spare time and just want a spider to drive and enjoy, find a good mechanic. Like has been said, oilpan gasket least of your problems, really no use pulling pan at this point.
Keith

[SpiderHead]

Further,

New short blocks are actually pretty cheap.

Depending on your budget, a 2 liter block can be found as cheap as $1700-1800. It sounds like a lot, but talk about a quick fix! and a new block means zero core charges.

A rebuild in a pro shop can easily cost more than that, but if you have the patience, time, and enough beer... you can do most of it yourself.

I'd suggest taking a class at your local community college on engine rebuilding, and familiarize yourself with the local machine shops.

Prior to starting a job this involved, be sure to get two books. One is a parts book. I have one, and I use it more than I have ever used a shop manual. The exploded view of the component for me is usually all I need to see. The second book you need is a shop manual. Don't settle here, get the real deal shop manual from Fiat. Haynes and Chiltons are fine for people that are changing a belt, hose or thier oil.. but a real job takes correct factory information and not just instructions.

Pulling a bad engine from a car is very straight forward, its as easy as pulling one that is in perfect health. However, be sure to follow the below listed rules.

1) Take poop loads of pictures
2) Label every single part that comes off of the car
3) Create a system for keeping those labeled parts in order
4) mount your lovely motor on an engine stand, as soon as it is out of the car, and take another poop load of pictures, get shots from every angle
5) Drink lots of beer, and break often to admire the mess you have made
6) Steam clean the entire greasy lump ( you might want to do this on someone elses driveway.. lol, but the effort is quite well worth it)
7) Take another poop load of pictures... things look very different when they are clean
Drink the rest of your beer


Now that you are drunk, and have made a huge mess out of your garage... I suggest going to sleep. The next few steps are the fiddly bits, and you want to approach them sober... or hung over if you are a champ.

the engine tear down:

1) Remove all belts by loosening the tensioners, and remove the ancillary bits (ie starter, alternator, smog gear.. etc.)
2) Remove the head intact, with the carb still bolted to the intake, intake still bolted to the head.. you get the picture..
3) Go to Sears, and get a bigger hammer
4) try soaking the cylinders again, pour the engine a drink, then go ahead and have some more beer...
5) come back more than a few hours later, and try soaking the cylinders with ATF again
6) Use the big hammer, wail on that engine like it owes you money! (because if it doesn't, it will soon!.. lol) ok, actually at this stage all you should do is lightly tap each piston in the firing order. as seen from the front of the motor, 1,3,4,2.
7) soak, tap, repeat

If you can get it loose, you are golden, and a hero. Proceed with the dismantle, and take the block to a decent machine shop to clean up the bore, crank and have the bearings inspected.

If you can't, then your motor is a boat anchor. Get a new one or a freewheeling rebuildable core. There are plenty of them out there.

The single best bit of advice I can give you, is to buy a parts car. and be picky! You might find a parts car that is more complete than your car! for almost nothing! I did... It saved me 2 years, and maybe 6k.

Good luck bro!

be patient, working on it is half the fun!
stay organized
never give up, we are here for you... and if you aren't to far, might be there for you too.. lol
clean up often, a tidy workpplace is a joy, when a messy one is a chore
don't be afraid of any project, this is a simple car... good prep, and the right tools = success!
this isn't rocket sceince... as Italy has no space program

-Ryan

[NickSpider]

Ok to answer a few of your questions. Its a 1975 Fiat Spider 1800 engine. The bought the car from the original owner. He is the father of a lady who works for me. She mentioned he had an old fiat that he was looking to get rid of and a buddy of mine had one in college and I asked him how tough it would be to get it running, he acted like it wouldnt be too hard, but that was before I found out the car had been sitting in storage for longer than we had thought. Car only has like 25K original miles on it. It has sat in storage for 15+ years the last inspection sticker was from 1982 so it may have been sitting longer than he remembers, the original owner is 84 years old. The car was tied up in his wifes estate for a year before I could pick it up and get the title transferred. I paid $500 for it, originally he only wanted 250 but charged me an extra 250 to recover some of storage fees he paid, either way a great deal i think, but have already spent quite a bit on replacement parts. I live in Houston, TX.

He told me that when they quit driving it everything was working with the exception of the fuel pump and that he never go around to replacing the electronic pump and him and his wife put the car in there garage, where it sat for a few years, then they moved it to storage around 5 years ago or so, His wife refused to let him sell it. The car is in great shape other than the crankshaft being stuck, car has very little rust and the interior will look almost brand new with a good cleaning and such.

[majicwrench]

Nickspider,
If it seized while in storage, the pistons and/or rings are froze in the bore. This is better than a crank/rod/bearing issue at this point.
Now I would recommend patience. Pull plugs, put a small amount (1/4 cup) of penetrating oil down the holes, let it sit. get the right socket for crank nut and big and bigger 1/2 or 3/4" breaker bar. Try to turn clockwise. It likely won't go the first time. More oil, more time. Try again. And again. I would do this for a good week or two, if at that point it still is nogo, you may wish to pull head and tap on pistons. Banging on pistons with any force will break the rings and/or the ring lands in the pistons, and result in a real smoker, but some light thunks and of course more oil may do the trick. However, once you get head off you may see so much rust that this all become a moot point.
For now, patience, oil, positive thoughs, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Keith

[4babycar]

Nick - I am not sure where you are located but after reading your post and seeing this I thought I would pass it along just in-case it would do you some good. It is located in Brighton, MI which if I remember correctly is about 1hr NW of Detroit. I use to have to travel there for business - if you go stop by the Stillwater Grill and have the Ostrich steak, you will not regret it.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/pts/962953633.html

[mdrburchette]

It sounds like you have a bit of work ahead of you. You may want to check out Shadetree Enginetrics in the Dallas/Fortworth area if you find you need mechanical help or used parts: http://home.earthlink.net/~fiatdr/shadetree.html

We have an old Farmall tractor that sat outside for over 20 years. After soaking the cylinders, we hooked up to a 4wd truck and pulled it down the road until the wheels started turning. It was fine after that but I don't know what damage that would cause to a Fiat engine. I've got a 70 Spider that's been sitting since 1985 that I may try it on but I have the tools and mechanic right here at home if the engine needs overhauled.

[baltobernie]

Good news; the carb'd 1800 is a very popular engine. You should be able to pick up an entire running engine with accessories for $500. Throw in a new clutch, battery, and all rubber hoses, belts, and a flex disc, and you'll be on the road for under a grand.

Unless you are contemplating a total restoration, I would not recommend an engine rebuild. Several hundred dollars in machine shop labor, and again as much in parts, gaskets, etc. Plus after all these years, the carb is shot, too.

Keep your eye out for a parts car. Check for a dented oil pan, listen to it run, look at the gauges and underneath for leaks. If the crankcase isn't full of STP, and no water in the oil, you're good to go. Pull the radiator (2 nuts), hood (4) and the engine/tranny out as one.

THEN, after you can drive it, you can do an objective evaluation of all the car's systems, and make realistic choices.

[NickSpider]

ok just got out to work on it today, hooked it up behind the expedition and pulled forward two times, ended up dragging it about 6 feet or so with no luck on turning the crankshaft. The rear tires will not move, just leaving skid marks up the driveway.

Let me ask if I were to haul the car to a mechanic (there is a guy that works on Fiats within about 10 miles of me), what in all likleyhood am I looking at spending to get this engine running?

Someone mentioned a whole new engine for $500 bucks? Where abouts would I find one of these, does anyone know of someplace that basically fixes them and swaps them out for the core?

I am not too concerned with a full authentic restoration, I just want a nice little car for my wife and I to drive on occasion when the weather is nice. Right now there is a little rust on the front of the vehicle, it seems overtime the paint around the lights has cracked and allowed moisture down to the metal. Once I can get this thing running I think I will get it repainted.

Thanks for all the help, I would be sol without this forum of great ideas.

Nick