1985 Spider starts rough and dies

[launieg]

My bet is that you have either a bad pump, the wires have been reversed, or the fuel filter is clogged. You are aware that the pump pushes through the filter - at least it does on my '81, so if the filter is clogged, the pump will struggle but keep running. Depending on the particular pump you have, the wires can be easily (accidentally) reversed. Check the wires for polarity (using a simple test light works fine), then look carefully at the markings on the pump. They can be very, very difficult to see. Finally, a pump can "run" and not pump. I have several that do this - all Bosch by the way. They can intermittently run well, run but not pump, and not run at all. If they have ever run "dry", then they can develop these sorts of problems.

I would start by checking the polarity and hookups, like Brian said. Then pop the hose off the filter and see if it pumps gas into a jar. (Careful.)

Good luck.

[Daveje]

Thanks for the input everybody,I appreciate it! I got home tonight and started looking at it some more. I started by checking the double relay. It is clicking when I turn the key to on,but there is no voltage to the green fuel pump output wire when I turn the key to start. There does seem to be voltage coming from the ignition to the relay. Basically,I tested all the relay inputs and outputs per a troubleshooting guide I found on this website. Is there anything else this could be but a bad double relay? The pump is wired up correctly and the fuel lines are correct, I did have this thing running for about 20 minutes after reinstalling the tank. I also tried running an extra ground wire to the pump by running a wire from the neg- side to the car frame(hope that's right).The problem with the relay seemed to start this morning when I was turning the pump on with the AFM door, all the sudden it stopped working and the relay started buzzing. Does anyone think this is anything but a bad double relay or could it be caused by something else?
Also, there is also a small relay looking thing in a metal can attached to the rear of the relay panel, but not under the panel like the rest of the relays. The wires to it are kind of burnt looking but the wires have no voltage going to them! Anyone know what this is? It's marked "INT8A 12V 10A" and it almost looks like some kind of thermal fuse when I cracked it open.Has four decent gauge wires going to it.

[Daveje]

Also wanted to add, if it is the relay, does anyone know a good way to safely bypass the relay to turn the fuel pump on temporarily? I want to troubleshoot the fuel flow problem this weekend but I don't want to have to overnight a relay. I think I can get a fuel pump from Autozone or Advance around here.

[rlux4]

The dual relay is two relays, but they are housed in one housing. I'm away form home right now, so I can't check for sure, so I'll give you as much as I can from memory. The dual relay will have will have two connectors on it, one will have a large brown wire, smaller wires in green, red, pink, and maybe other colors. The other connector will have a slew of little white wires. It is located near the ECU, but usually not mounted on the shelf that has the rest of the relays.
The injectors pulse when the ground side of the circuit is completed by the ECU. The best way to check if they are getting a signal is with a noid light. I have tried a test light and a VOM, and the signal is so weak and quick, it was very hard to detect with either. The noid light plugs into the injector connector and gives you a good light when it pulses. I bought mine at Autozone. They will rent them, or sell them to you. If you get the noid light, get the set, because the one labeled Bosch is not the one that plugs into our connectors.
Don't get discouraged, trust me, we've all been where you are. When you get it sorted out, it will run so well you'll forget how frustrated you are now.
Ron
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[fischettie]

just got a 83 pinnin and got the same issue in the mean time i did the timing belt and other odds and endshope you get her
going soon i had mine for a month and drove it 90 miles i am still waiting on the fuel hose between the rail and injecters good luck

[Daveje]

Thanks for the info. Not really frustrated yet, I'll figure it out eventually. I just don't know how the car works and I'm bouncing around all over the place. I was just out there again, it seem like there's voltage coming to the fuel pump outlet wire on the relay now,there was a small trickle of gas coming out of the fuel line, and the pump felt warm but not like it was running. This was after messing with the throttle position sensor. Don't know if that makes sense!Calling it a night. Right now I'm thinking just new fuel pump but.....

[rlux4]

Dave, to learn how the FI system works, if you don't already have it get Brad Artigue's maintenance manual that includes a good basic description of the system; http://www.artigue.com/fiat/
A good diagnostic source is here; http://www.wcmotors.com/personal/Fiat%2 ... agnostics/
Good luck,
Ron

[launieg]

The warm fuel pump indicates to me that you have either a bad fuel pump or a clogged filter. It is not difficult to check for both.

It only takes a few minutes to disconnect the outlet hose from the fuel pump (where it connects to the filter) and see if it will pump gas into a jar. I remove the back wheel and raise the car a bit. While you are under there, first check that the pump is getting juice at the time by using a test lamp on the terminals to the pump (have someone hold open the AFM flap to signal the ECU to run the pump).

If you are getting juice but no fuel into the jar, then it is the pump. If you are getting fuel , then it is probably the filter. If you are getting fuel though, do that check at the hose where it goes into the cold start injector (disconnect and put that short hose into a pop bottle, to see if it is a bad line between the filter and engine.

I might add that if it is the pump, you will probably hear it or feel it getting warm while not producing fuel. I have found that if you reverse the connection to the pump (I've done this off of the car), then it will sometimes clear. I've seen a reverse flow of filthy fuel and a pump be "repaired" through this reverse cleanout. No guarantee it will continue to run indefinitely after that, but at leas you then have a running pump.

[So Cal Mark]

I'd make sure the pump is getting 12v, and you can't tell with just a test light

[launieg]

Right Mark, of course

[Daveje]

I went out there this morning and I do have voltage at the pump again. I also see about .5 volts on my meter coming to the injectors while cranking. I tapped on the pump with my vise grips and got a good stream of fuel from the fuel line in the engine bay so that's good news in my book. I went to Advance Auto and picked up a new pump. I'm gonna be optimistic here and think I'll throw that thing on and she's gonna fire right up! i'll check out the old one and keeep it as a spare. Thanks all, i'll let you know how I make out.

[Daveje]

Hey all once again no luck. I put the new fuel pump on last night(thank god for the understanding wife,this is getting time consuming) and now it the pump is running well with good flow and all but the car will still not stay alive. I don't have a pressure gauge but it seems like there is pressure because when I loosen the hose to the cold start valve it wants to spray out the top of the hose. It now starts right up but dies in about 3 seconds. When I disconnect the cold start it doesn't even do this so I'm assuming it's running totally off the cold start. I did pull the first injector out and no spray of fuel, so at this point I have to assume they were clogged by the bad fuel in the tank making past the filter if that's possible.
About the injectors, I don't have the noid light thing but tested for a signal with my voltmeter,gets about .5 volts pulsing,does that sound right? Can you hook up a battery to the injector to get it to manually open? I saw this suggested somewhere and tried it briefly with a 9 volt battery but no luck, didn't fell any clicking or anything.
Any thoughts on whether or not I'm on the right track and on testingwould be appreciated. Also, do local shops normally clean these things for you off the car? I'm going to start looking around for a place. I saw someone on this site suggest Witchhunter Performance in Washington state to mail them off to but would like to find a place at least on the East coast, I'm in Wilmington NC. Thanks for reading .

[So Cal Mark]

lots of places clean and flow test injectors off the car. You should be able to ground the injectors with power to the other side and feel a distinct click. I've seen lots of clogged injectors lately. I've got a feeling the newer reformulated fuel turns to thicker varnish than the old fuel

[jimincalif]

I've seen lots of clogged injectors lately. I've got a feeling the newer reformulated fuel turns to thicker
varnish than the old fuel

In the boating world there have been a lot of problems with gas blended with ethanol causing filter and injector clogs. Boats are used infrequently so they share a common problem with cars that are not daily drivers and not buying fresh gas every week or two. Ethanol absorbs moisture and apparently can chemically separate from the gasoline. Here is one article on this:

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanolwinter.asp

[Daveje]

I'm not sure if it was rust or varnish that caused my problem. I do know that the PO filled the tank up for me before he delivered the car to me and that's when problems started.I think the car was sitting in his garage for 2 years with 1/4 tank.
The gas was brown and muddy in the lines, even past the fuel filter. I found a guy locally who can clean the injectors Monday or tuesday even though he wants $35.00 ea. Worth it if it gets my car running.