So many timing questions...

[OaklandSpider]

Hello again all...
It was running, not well, but running, before I changed the spark plugs, condensors, rotor, points and wires.
then, it wouldn't spark. it would turn over but no spark.
rechecked the wires, points gaps, connections to plugs, coil, and dizzy cap.
finally got a spark.
But...
it won't turn over enough to idle, at all.
Turning the dizzy makes it come close to running, but not all the way. Smoke came out of the carb...looks like gas spat out of the carb as well.
WHAT CAN I DO TO GET HER RUNNING?
1. my friend said he thinks the timing is so far advanced that it is firing when the piston is on its way up, essentially 'stuffing' it
2. if that is the case, is it off a tooth? should I even mess with that?
3. what can I do to get her to idle, so I can fine tune everything afterwards?
any and all help appreciated....

[OaklandSpider]

First off...I know that the post is stupid at best...seeing as how none of you can see what I've done, how I've done it, or what is correctly/incorrectly done...I have spent hours making sure the connections are right, gaps are right, and everything is 'as it should be'. I'll post pics and video when I get the chance...but what I am getting at is, is this a common problem? has some one run into it before? do these problems sound familiar? What am I missing here?
maybe that's what I should have asked....
again, thanks in advance...
Peter

[ventura ace]

Hello again all...
It was running, not well, but running, before I changed the spark plugs, condensors, rotor, points and wires.
then, it wouldn't spark. it would turn over but no spark.
rechecked the wires, points gaps, connections to plugs, coil, and dizzy cap.
finally got a spark.
But...
it won't turn over enough to idle, at all.
Turning the dizzy makes it come close to running, but not all the way. Smoke came out of the carb...looks like gas spat out of the carb as well.
WHAT CAN I DO TO GET HER RUNNING?
1. my friend said he thinks the timing is so far advanced that it is firing when the piston is on its way up, essentially 'stuffing' it
2. if that is the case, is it off a tooth? should I even mess with that?
3. what can I do to get her to idle, so I can fine tune everything afterwards?
any and all help appreciated....

Spitting Gas and smoke out of the carb suggest that the valve timing is way off. Following comments refer to your numbered questions:
1) Predetonation can cause a lot of damage. If it's that far advanced, need to reset distributor timing. Did you have the rotor out? Perhaps it's not put back in correctly. See #2.
2) Check cam timing first before doing #1. If timing belt setting are off, it will run very rough, if at all. After setting the timing belt and pulleys to their marks, set the distributor rotor pointed to the #4 contact inside the cover.
3) If above steps are taken, you should be able to get a decent idle, then fine tune from there.

Hope you get it going!

Alvon

[OaklandSpider]

ACE...those are exactly the suggestions I was looking for...
1. no...I did not take the dizzy out...can't speak for the PO
2. will definitely line up the cam marks...
3. thanks for the tips! I'll let you know when the thing is up and running....
Peter

[OaklandSpider]

Ace...looks like the pulley marks are (somehow) WAY off. Do I need to take the timing belt off, turn the pulleys in the direction they rotate, set them at the correct marks, re-install timing belt, and then align rotor to number 4 position? It seems impossible to set the cam pulleys any other way. Am I wrong? Is there a way of doing it without taking the timing belt off?
Peter

[Kevin1]

Before youchange the cam timing, double check those marks. Remember, the crankshaft pulley turns twice for each revolution of the camshaft wheels. If the cam pulley marks are off when the crank shows TDC, rotate the crank one more turn, and check the cams again. You don't want to reset the cams with the crank 180 degrees off.

The information at this link might help spell this out better than I can.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4963162/Fiat- ... ent-Helper

[majicwrench]

I would NOT mess with cam timing at this point, unless I have really missed something here. Car ran before you changed tuneup items, you have something incorrect with tuneup items NOT cam timing!! THis is usaully a case of something simple being missed, first thing comes to mind is firing order. Take a good look, get it right, Fiat cap is a little odd. Find a mechanic friend and invite him over for dinner, or make a new friend.
Again, I would NOT mess with cam timing/belt, it is not likely that it jumped time at just the moment you changed the tuneup items.
Keith

[OaklandSpider]

SO...
this weekend I :
1. lined up the cam marks
2. made sure the rotor was pointing at the #4 position
still nothing
I know it's virtually impossible to diagnose something like this over the computer, without actually seeing what I've done/done incorrectly...
I'm getting a gas smell and before this weekend I was getting a weak spark at some positions when I turned the dizzy when trying to start it.
Please feel free to make any more suggestions....as I'm at a total loss here.
I've tried retracing my steps:
putting the old rotor back in
putting one of the old condensors back in
checking to make sure all connections are solid....
jumped the battery to give it some more juice
all fuses look good
turns over but won't spark...
anyone else come across these issues?

[So Cal Mark]

do you have a test light?

[ventura ace]

I understood from a previous post that you were getting spark. Call me if you'd like to discuss. Maybe if we put our heads together we can find the problem.

Alvon
805-338-1767

[OaklandSpider]

Mark...
no I do not have a test light...and forgive the ignorance, but a test light for what? What will that help me determine?
Also, I've heard it said that old Fiat coils won't/don't work well with new Bosch platinum plugs...any truth to that?
How about converting to a single points set up? Seems easy enough, does it help make the ignition/timing issue any easier?
Peter
Electronic ignition? How easy is it and how will that help with facilitating the timing nightmare I find myself in?
Thanks in advance

[So Cal Mark]

why switch to electronic ignition if you aren't able to troubleshoot the current system to determine the failure? A test light would be used to check for power at various spots in the ignition system. In your instance, I would use it to check for power to and through the points. My guess is that you have the power wire to the points grounded. Platinum plugs have nothing to do with a coil working, but I don't recommend platinum. Their only benefit is extended change intervals, and in my experience they never recover from flooding. If you've been trying to start the engine with no spark, the plugs may be fouled already.
No offense, but if you plan to work on any car you need a few basic tools. You wouldn't expect a doctor to perform brain surgery with a rock and stick.

[OaklandSpider]

Mark...
thanks for the info.
I'll get a test light and see what it tells me.
Peter
I'll keep everyone posted
(it's hard to look at that car with summer coming and not be able to drive it! I want to get this fixed SOON!)

[skumandeth]

Sounds like you've been through the basics. Double check that point gap, make sure they are fully on a lobe when you check it. Dwell being way off will cause bad timing symptoms and weak spark. With that new test light, check for power at the BAT side of the coil with ign on. Now take that shiny new tool put the clip on a positive battery source and probe the NEG side of coil, have a buddy crank engine over, the light should flash, which tells you the points are firing the coil but, coil is not producing any spark. It is possible the coil was going south to begin with and with all the new t.u. parts it just won't fire anymore, I've seen it before.

[OaklandSpider]

So......
After many frustrations, head banging, tire kicking, for-sale-sign pondering, I finally got her running!
Not the most scientific of processes, just basically pulled everything and started over. Also, replaced the coil, went back to old copper spark plugs (no more platinum). I should have been more patient (I know) and tried harder to identify/isolate the problem. When i did that, though, everything seemed OK:
Power from coil (not very strong, though)
Power from/through the distributor
Spark at the plugs (after much fussing and fighting)
Why wasn't this working?
Help from a friend made all the difference...
Now onto the oil leaks form the #1 and #4 bolt which make big smoke.....
Thanks to Ventura Ace for his telephone wisdom and unwavering patience with a relative novice like myself...and everyone else who chimed in...
Plenty of more stupid questions to come!
Peter