Starting issue

[pjnats]

First of all, how's everyone doing? I haven't posted in awhile, but before the season gets too advanced, I'd like to sort out a problem that started last year. It took several attempts each morning before my '82 FI finally started. It cranked, but didn't turn over for at least a few minutes. Now a new problem has developed. When I turn the key, nothing happens, and then after several tries, it starts cranking and eventually starts. Does this sound familiar to anyone? As always, any advice is appreciated!

Pete

[jimincalif]

There are two inline connectors on the wires running to the starter motor behind the alternator, one on the red wire and one on the brown wire. Open them up and clean both ends of them, use a pick to spread the male ends a bit wider and reassemble with a light dab of dielectric grease, or remove the connectors entirely and solder the wires together.

Also, make sure battery is fully charged, battery terminals are clean, connections at the starter motor post are clean, and the connections at the wire terminal block behind the ignition switch are clean and tight. Spray a bit of contact cleaner into the ignition switch.

[rlux4]

It sounds like two separate problems. First, slow to fire up; How does it run after it does start? Does it act the same in warm weather? A number of things could be causing the problem, among them: cold start valve not functioning (valve itself or thermo/time switch), poor ignition components (plugs, rotor, cap, magnetic pick up [ie. gap, wires, module], timing). Second is your intermittent not cranking. Check the connections on the starter and the major ground at the tranny bell housing to body. If these are good it may be the ignition switch is dying. It could even be the starter solenoid.
Lotta things to check, I know, but any car as old as these will have components that wear out.
Ron

[pjnats]

First of all, Ron and Jim, thanks for your replies. To answer your first question, Ron, in addition to the starting issue, this car never idles properly. It's usually high or low, 1500 down to 300. If it does idle at 8 or 900, it's very rough; the engine actually shakes. I do as much maintenance as I can, basic stuff really, but I've never been able to get a smooth, consistent idle.

Pete

[jimincalif]

Does it idle slow and rough when cold, and then idle increases to 1500 after it is warmed up? Could be the auxiliary air regulator is not opening. It allows more air to bypass the throttle when cold to hold the idle high, then supposed to close and allow the idle to drop as the engine warms up. If it doesn't open, then the idle is probably set high (otherwise it won't start when cold).

[pjnats]

Actually, that's pretty close to what happens, Jim. She'll actually stall when I first get her going, until she "warms up," and then the idle runs high. I have to say, when I'm going through the gears, this car has a lot of torque, but when in idle, the performance is very frustrating.

[rlux4]

If you haven't got it yet you should download Brad Artigue's maintenance manual. It has a section covering our FI cars that explains each of the components, a basic troubleshooting chart and a good tune up tutorial.
http://www.artigue.com/fiat/books/Artig ... 124_MM.pdf
Jim's suggestion is a good starting point. You can check the operation of your auxilliary air valve by cooling it first and then warming it up. Look inside its throat and see if the disc over little triangle shaped opening is working OK.
Of the sensors in our system the temp sensor in the cooling T is the most critical for good performance. The ECU is no doubt getting a wrong signal from somewhere. If your AAV is good, then this sensor is a likely culprit. The other sensors (excluding the thermo/time switch, which is only active for a few seconds when cold) usually won't cause poor idling. Although I did hear recently about someone who's car ran better after he changed out the O2 sensor.
Ron

[pjnats]

Thanks, again, Jim and Ron. I downloaded Brad's manual, and read about not changing the 02 sensor prematurely, which I did last year with no change in performance. Today's development is that after cranking a few times, my car will no longer crank at all. I'll spend tomorrow attempting your suggestions, and see if I can troubleshoot what's wrong. More to come I'm sure.

[pjnats]

Well, after spending almost an entire day Saturday and half a day Monday, I both removed and re-inserted my starter, including the dreaded third bolt! I did it all by myself, but utilized the knowledge and wisdom from posts both on this and the mirafiori site. I had the starter tested, and it was fine. With the suggestion of an auto parts rep I also pulled the control module and had it tested, it too was fine. Today I decided to remove the ignition switch, thinking that I could have it tested as well. I called the parts store and my mechanic, to see if they could test it. Both said no, so I started looking for posts regarding testing ignition switches, and I came across this gem from the mirafiori site:

16568 Thu 13th May 1999 05:18am Re: Lube That Ignition Switch !!! (Dave Meredith)

Matthias Stiller wrote:
: You may also disconnect all cables at the starter itself and
: clean them. Sometimes its a matter of bad ground (Dwight !).

..... but, more often than not in my experience, it's bad
contacts within the switch itself. Problem is that, over the
years of operation, these contacts wear, and dirt is introduced
into the cylinders every time the key is inserted and turned.
Thus poor electrical contact and resulting problems.

I've had problems with bad ignition switch contacts with EVERY
Fiat I've come in contact (... no pun intended...) with over the
past 20+ years. Our Brava would mysteriously stop running when
going down the road, but when you'd turn the key to start it
back up, there was no problem. A bugger to diagnose, this one
was.

While you can't do a whole lot about wear with my fix, the
cleaning and lubing of the switch is an important part of
preventive maintenance and should be done annually.

Get yourself a bunch of old rags and a spray can of WD-40 which
has the long skinny nozzle. Disconnect the battery and stick
the spray nozzle down into the switch slot where the key goes.
Spray A LOT of WD-40 into the switch until it runs out
everywhere. Use the rags to catch the surplus, and look at the
color of what runs out into the rags. Nice and dirty and black,
I'd bet. Turn your key back and forth a number of times to work
the WD-40 into the cylinders. Repeat the spray and the key
turning procedure alternately until that time that the excess WD-
40 runoff is clear.

This removes any oxide or crud within the switch which results
in intermittant electrical problems just like those described.
You'll also be surprised how easy it now will be to turn the key.

"Never overlook the obvious and easy fixes!" (Dave's Rule!)

Dave Meredith / Ignition switch restorer in Ohio

Guess what? My car now starts! It still takes a few cranks to start, and idles rough, but at least it's out of the garage! I wonder how many poor souls replaced their ignition switches, when Dave's method might have worked for them!

[katsi]

HMM, when I read posts like these, I love my carburator. Good luck, you'll get her sorted out.

[So Cal Mark]

the problem with introducing liquid into the switch is that it is a short term fix. The liquid will lubricate for a short time but will attract dirt and make the problem worse. Much better to use a dry lubricant; silicone or graphite. Also, the directions to squirt into the key slot will lube the lock cylinder but I'm not too sure it will get down to the electrical contacts. In my experience, we've had to remove the back side of the switch where the electrical contacts are to get them working again

[pjnats]

I had that thought as well, Mark, regarding this being a short term fix. I'm just happy that I at least discovered what's wrong, so I'm not spending more hours tracking the problem. Incidentally, how difficult is it to remove the back of the switch?

Pete

[baltobernie]

Here's the article on ignition switch repair:
http://www.mirafiori.com/~kdickson/switch/