Coupe Dyno Run Results

[mdrburchette]

I give you and Csaba a thumbs up for what you've accomplished on this motor. I, too, have spent several thousands of dollars to upgrade my 38 year old engine and dealt with a lot of skepticism and questions.,,,but the people that are willing to try different things to better the car, whether the results are what they expect or not, are the ones that ultimately help keep these cars alive.

[wmausbach]

Yea Denise, I'll AMEN your post. These engines were outstanding when they are created and with a little updated technology they will still give modern results. The fact they still are competative 50 yrars later is trully remarkable. I think the old two valve still has a lot of life in it and Jeff's effort sets new standard for a street engine. Just think if somebody designs a variable pulley and variable valve lift? With 150 RWHP is better than most modern street engines other than the trick Toyoda and Honda engines. His efforts will inspire the rest of us to improve on our Twin Cams.
The best thing is that I will be able to see Jeff's car in the flesh and I can't wait. A side benefit of living in the same town.

Ciao
Wayne in Houston

[Zmatt]

Yea Denise, I'll AMEN your post. These engines were outstanding when they are created and with a little updated technology they will still give modern results. The fact they still are competative 50 yrars later is trully remarkable. I think the old two valve still has a lot of life in it and Jeff's effort sets new standard for a street engine. Just think if somebody designs a variable pulley and variable valve lift? With 150 RWHP is better than most modern street engines other than the trick Toyoda and Honda engines. His efforts will inspire the rest of us to improve on our Twin Cams.
The best thing is that I will be able to see Jeff's car in the flesh and I can't wait. A side benefit of living in the same town.

Ciao
Wayne in Houston

lol VTEC on a Fiat TC, I think i would need to change my pants and have a smoke. those systems are pretty complicated and just can't be retrofitted i don't think. VTEC is hydraulic if i remember right and running the lines to the head and supporting it all would be a fabrication nightmare. Multiair is pneumatic and form what i understand is brilliantly simple and effective, again this is all relative.

[ventura ace]

Just think if somebody designs a variable pulley and variable valve lift?

You want to know something interesting --- it has been done! My Dad did a lot of research and inventing in the early days of variable valve timing (VVT), while on the Mechanical Engineering staff at Clemson U. Their researched focused on developing VVT for both the intake and exhaust valve cams for a single camshaft engine, as is used on many 6-cylinder engines. Their patented design is a camshaft within a camshaft (outer one is hollow with openings for the lobes from the inner solid shaft to protrude through). The inner shaft can be variably positioned relative to the outer shaft to control the phase between the intake and exhaust valves, and the whole shaft assembly can be varied in relation to crankshaft timing. The engine ran with no throttle (wide open throttle), which is the most efficient way to run internal combustion, and the engine speed and torque was totally controlled with the valve events.

So, where does the twin cam 124 spider engine come into play for this project? The design of our overhead twin cams for these engines is so accessible, that it lent itself quite handily for my Dad and his graduate students while they were gathering data for operating an engine solely with varying the valve timing events (wide open throttle). The devised a 'phaser' for each camshaft that allowed them to have complete independent control for each camshaft, in relation to the crankshaft, and used the data for defining their designs for the single camshaft version. Their primary goal was to increase efficiency and reduce emissions for both gasoline and diesel engines, but as you probably well know, the variable valve timing has been used as much for optimizing performance as it is used for increasing efficiency.

I should try to see if I could get my hands on some of the old 'phasers' that they used for their testing, and see if we could adapt it to a running vehicle. It never was used for that purpose, so there would be a fair amount of development involved, including developing all the computer algorithms to control the thing.

[Zmatt]

Just think if somebody designs a variable pulley and variable valve lift?

You want to know something interesting --- it has been done! My Dad did a lot of research and inventing in the early days of variable valve timing (VVT), while on the Mechanical Engineering staff at Clemson U. Their researched focused on developing VVT for both the intake and exhaust valve cams for a single camshaft engine, as is used on many 6-cylinder engines. Their patented design is a camshaft within a camshaft (outer one is hollow with openings for the lobes from the inner solid shaft to protrude through). The inner shaft can be variably positioned relative to the outer shaft to control the phase between the intake and exhaust valves, and the whole shaft assembly can be varied in relation to crankshaft timing. The engine ran with no throttle (wide open throttle), which is the most efficient way to run internal combustion, and the engine speed and torque was totally controlled with the valve events.

So, where does the twin cam 124 spider engine come into play for this project? The design of our overhead twin cams for these engines is so accessible, that it lent itself quite handily for my Dad and his graduate students while they were gathering data for operating an engine solely with varying the valve timing events (wide open throttle). The devised a 'phaser' for each camshaft that allowed them to have complete independent control for each camshaft, in relation to the crankshaft, and used the data for defining their designs for the single camshaft version. Their primary goal was to increase efficiency and reduce emissions for both gasoline and diesel engines, but as you probably well know, the variable valve timing has been used as much for optimizing performance as it is used for increasing efficiency.

I should try to see if I could get my hands on some of the old 'phasers' that they used for their testing, and see if we could adapt it to a running vehicle. It never was used for that purpose, so there would be a fair amount of development involved, including developing all the computer algorithms to control the thing.

Holy crap! I would be interested in hearing more about this.

[mdrburchette]

Very interesting, Alvon....so, you came from a family of engineers? That explains a lot.

[ventura ace]

Yep, dear old pops and his twin brother are both retired Mechanical Engineering professors. My 2 brothers are both engineers, as is my sister's husband. I resisted being one myself, just to be different, but eventually learned that is what I did best, so I caved in and became an engineer, also. I suppose that is why I tend to over-analyze everything I do with my Fiat!

We'll be going back to the Carolina's to vist family in July, so I'll spend some time then to get some more info from my Dad about their variable valve timing tests with the Fiat double-overhead cam setup. I'll get back to you folks later on that. Perhaps the testing data would provide a start for a good development project for the likes of Jason Miller, Mark Allison, Hal, Gary, Csaba, Jeff, and myself (and too many more to mention).

Alvon

[sptcoupe]

Now that we're wrapping up the coupe project, I am already thinking about the next project, which will inlvolve some sort of hi-performance motor/tranny swap for the 124 sedan. I just think that would be the ultimate sleeper! A variable valve timed engine sounds like a perfect place to start.

Then there is that supercharged/turbo'd 1608 sptcoupe that Halg is putting together. Now how sweet would it be to have variably timed valves on that motor.....

[So Cal Mark]

this is something we've been contemplating for a few years. I've been looking at the Alfa variable timing setup on the 2.0 Spiders for ideas

[Zmatt]

I'm eager to hear updates on the VVT system. It would be awesome if Mark or someone was able to work with you and manufacture some. I'm guessing this system is continuously variable timing and lift on the intake and exhaust cam right? The way you described it made it sound like it would have to be. Something like a haltech or megasquirt might be able to take advantage of it and use it like a conventional VVT system. The possibilities make me giddy.

[ventura ace]

The design that I referred to is continuously vaiable timing of the intake and exhaust camshafts, but with a fixed lift. In other words, using conventional lobes and clocking the rotation to vary the timing. Changing the lift would take it to a different level of design.

The new Fiat Multiair technology controls the intake valves with little hydraulic actuators. This gives a lot of flexibility in changing the valve event. See http://www.fiat.co.uk/content/?id=10857 and http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09 ... -tech_dept

Alvon

[Zmatt]

The design that I referred to is continuously vaiable timing of the intake and exhaust camshafts, but with a fixed lift. In other words, using conventional lobes and clocking the rotation to vary the timing. Changing the lift would take it to a different level of design.

The new Fiat Multiair technology controls the intake valves with little hydraulic actuators. This gives a lot of flexibility in changing the valve event. See http://www.fiat.co.uk/content/?id=10857 and http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09 ... -tech_dept

Alvon

Yeah multiair is ingenious. I can't wait until it is in US spec 500's. Also no biggie on fixed lift. Timing alone is enough to freak out over.