starter and engine does not turn by hand

[Michiganjfrog]

Absolutely change the Timing Belt. It should never have any worn off cogs. It can be catastrophic if it has slipped far ranging from a broken oil pump to a hole in the block. Start there really not hard to change.

[Maqua]

Lets see if this makes sense? Have pulled the rad and timing cover. Using a protractor (not overly precisely) the Intake and exhaust read at about 210 degrees of the mark, the auxilary cam is at about 230 degrees off TDC and the crank is at about 120 degrees off TDC. Would like to line the cams up on their mark but cannot turn the engine in either direction by hand and the starter just clicks! The timing belt, though worn, still seems to have a bit of life left in it. Even so, I will be changing it. Seems the next bet is to drop the starter? (Going to replace that too) Looks like a fun job! Any secrets on reaching that third bolt? Haven't contemplated that maybe it threw a rod or something of the nature mainly because the pistons seem to be where they should be . . . rough measurments indicate #1 is down about 6 inches, #2 is down about 3 and half inches, #3 is down about 3 inches and #4 is down about 5 inches. And the oil and coolant are both clean. Guess I'd better find some heat for the garage, it may be a long winter!

Here's the scoop! Removed the timing belt. Both cams turn no problem. Crank will not turn and Auxilary will not turn. Am thinking this means they have jammed because of slippage of the timing belt! Any ideas on getting them unjammed before I start stripping the motor down? Turn the crank backwards maybe?

[azruss]

verify this with the rest of the campers, but a 78 should have non-interference valves (assuming stock pistons). 1&4 and 2&3 pistons go up together, so if measured accurately, should match up. If the crank is against the fuel pump cam, then it should rotate at least one way. If not, the aux shaft should rotate one way. A 20 degree difference could be enough to make them hit, but not necessarily. the last time i had my car apart and looked hard and long at the crank thru the aux holes and there is a lot of non interference area. about 12:30 to 3:00. So a 20 degree difference to the cams may not be the problem. One solution would be to pull the aux shaft.

[Maqua]

Thanks for the info. Makes me feel a bit more optimistic! Remeasured the pistons again with a dowel and they seem to be about the same place, #1 and #4 at the bottom and #2 and #3 close to the top. I tried turning the crank backwards using a breaker bar but no go. May need more leaverage so will get a pipe to extend the length of the breaker bar. Tried turning the auxilary forward, no go, backwards just loosens the nut. Will have to get a chain wrench to give it a try backwards. Have been thinking the starter may be the problem but would like to get the crank and the auxilary turning before I go there! How difficult is it to pull the auxilary shaft?

[azruss]

I hate to see you put too much torque on the crank. If the starter is stuck, you can trash your ring gear. if the crank is on the aux cam, then you can bend the aux shaft. Pulling the aux shaft is not a big deal. a 5 minute job with all the stuff you have already removed. will want a new gasket for it. remove the pulley and you will see the 2 bolts that hold the retainer. It just slips out. If you do that, take a flashlight and look down the hole to see if the crank is making contact. This is definitely easier than pulling the starter.

[Maqua]

Yes, I have the same concern, putting to much torque on the crank. I don't want to make a bad situation worse if I can help it. Have been thinking that it may be a starter problem, given that it turned over a couple of times on the starter after it stalled but following a process of elimination, if the starter is the problem, which, if it were could stop the crank from turning, I can't see how it would also stop the auxilary cam from turning; so that should eliminate a starter problem, at least for now. Pulling the auxilary shaft certainly makes sense and seems simple enough to do! Thanks for the suggestion!

One more question - just had a look at the auxilary pulley. Can it be taken off without taking the crank pulley off?

[Maqua]

Success! When all else fails, try a bigger wrench! After removing the timing belt, the intake and exhaust cams turned freely by hand. The crank and auxiliary shaft were stuck! Decided to put an extension on my half inch breaker bar for a bit more leverage. Pulled the crank backwards, no go. Pushed the crank shaft forward, proper rotation, and the wrench practically fell over by inself! New timing belt will arrive in a day or two so hopefully will have the car back on the road this weekend! Would like to get some driving in before the snow flies!

[dmwhiteoak]

We like good news. So what was the culprit ? Did the timing belt slip ? Keep us posted .

[FiatMac]

Success! When all else fails, try a bigger wrench! After removing the timing belt, the intake and exhaust cams turned freely by hand. The crank and auxiliary shaft were stuck! Decided to put an extension on my half inch breaker bar for a bit more leverage. Pulled the crank backwards, no go. Pushed the crank shaft forward, proper rotation, and the wrench practically fell over by inself! New timing belt will arrive in a day or two so hopefully will have the car back on the road this weekend! Would like to get some driving in before the snow flies!

You need to check that the auxiliary shaft turns freely with NO TIGHT SPOT. If there is a tight spot, the shaft is bent and will wear the bearings. Wear in the auxiliary shaft bearings will cause low oil pressure. Also if the auxiliary shaft is bent there is likely a significant ding in the bolt area of the #2 connecting rod.

[Maqua]

Received the timing belt yesterday and put it on! Thought eveything was fine, the engine turns on the original starter, but I can't get it to start. There is spark on the spark plugs, put gas in the carb but nothing. The engine just turns over? Am thinking either I didn't put the belt on accurately enough or what I have is not a non-interference engine and the valves are bent as there doesn't seem to be any compression? I put a compression tester on #1 and cranked the engine with the starter and it didn't even raise the needle. How close does the timing have to be? I have the crank at the long timing mark on the timing cover, the auxilary at one o'clock, the intake on the mark but the exhaust seems to come to rest about 5 degrees before the mark. Is this normal? or should I be turning the exhaust cam a bit more clockwise and line it up with the mark? Also, does anyone know of anywhere I could check to see for sure if this is a non-interfrence engine? The engine number is 132A1.040.6. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[Maqua]

Update on why the engine wouldn't turn - an 1800 is an interference engine! (Now I know for sure that at least this one is!)

A start on the problem??? September, 2012


If your timing belt looks anything like this - change it!


What you can expect when the timing belt goes! So do the valves! Ugh! #2 and #4 weren't doing much work anyway!



Pistons are okay! Big secret to getting the nut off the crankshaft - the right size socket, a two foot breaker bar with a four foot extension and a $29.95 vice-grip chain wrench from CT holding the crankshaft pulley! Comes off with a snap! Piece of cake!


Very simple way to get the timing belt on - use a small clamp as a spreader between the hold down bolt on the alternator and the tensioner bracket - it moves the bracket that precious half inch, no problem!


Not quite finished, but this is what it looks like now! Big thanks to Mark at Allison's Automotive for advice and parts! Gear reduction starter, electronic ignition, new carb, just to name a few! (New starter looks smart! Carb and electronic ignition not installed yet. A few more things to do but I have lots of time, it is now down to -20 C. and a foot of snow on the ground. No plans for this to be on the road before spring!). Timing is bang on this time!


Carburator on!


Electronic ignition installed and ready for a test run! Runs Beautifully! (even starts at -20 Celcius, no problem) Thanks Mark for all the advice!


Bit more work to do to tidy up! Heat shields on hood, weatherstripping, chrome wipers, etc. December 24, 2012