starter and engine does not turn by hand

[Maqua]

My wife was driving (not a cliche, she actually was), the car, a 1978 Fiat Spider 124, stalled. She tried a restart a couple of times, no go. We pushed the car into the driveway and tried a restart. The soleniod engages and the lights dim. Tried rocking the car, no difference. Tried turning the motor by hand, no go. Am thinking the starter has jammed on the flywheel. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[dmwhiteoak]

I have two, try and turn motor backwards or drop the starter.May even try and get a good lick on it with a hammer. There's not much more that can be done.

[Maqua]

Have tried both of those, rocking in gear, forward and reverse, hitting with a hammer, even a few choice words, but no luck! Dropping the starter seems to be the next logical choice!

[maytag]

check that the timing belt hasn't jumped. if the aux shaft is misaligned, it'll lock the motor up real tight.

[vandor]

> Tried rocking the car, no difference.

I which gear? In 4th gear you should be able to turn the engine by rocking the car. In the lower gears, not likely.

>Tried turning the motor by hand, no go.

You have to be pretty strong to be able to do that, or have to have the crank at TDC where the rings give the least resistance.

>Am thinking the starter has jammed on the flywheel.

Very unlikely. More likely the battery has gone down from the cranking, or the starter or a connection is bad.

[azruss]

a jammed starter wont cause the motor to stall. check your timing belt.

[Maqua]

Tried rocking the car in fifth gear and reverse, no luck. The timing belt is not in the best of shape, a lot of the ridge is worn off. How badly worn would the belt have to be in order for it to slip? Wife says it backfired before it stalled, would that cause the belt to slip? Was hoping I wouldn't have to get the wrenches out!

[vandor]

> How badly worn would the belt have to be in order for it to slip?

At $17 for a belt most people don't find out

> Wife says it backfired before it stalled, would that cause the belt to slip?

If it did slip that may cause a backfire.
You can see if all the timing marks line up, that will tell you if the belt slipped.

[Maqua]

> How badly worn would the belt have to be in order for it to slip?

At $17 for a belt most people don't find out

Unfortunately I only had the car for two days before it quit running. Replacing the timing belt was on the list!

> Wife says it backfired before it stalled, would that cause the belt to slip?

If it did slip that may cause a backfire.
You can see if all the timing marks line up, that will tell you if the belt slipped.

I pulled all the plugs and turned the engine half a turn using the alternator. Not enough to line up the timing marks and I don't want to force anything. Next is to pull the rad, remove the old belt, turn the cams and auxilary and then see if the crank will turn in order to have all in their proper place and install a new belt? If the crank doesn't turn then I intend to pull the starter.

[azruss]

whoa, slow down. if you rotated the motor, how far did it go. where are the timing marks now. more importantly, where is the mark on the aux pulley. If it comes to an abrupt stop then you may have contact between the crank and the old fuel pump cam. tell us where the marks are before you do anything. A little math may be able to tell you if you are off. for instance, if the cam marks are 30 degrees to the right of the pointer, then the aux pulley would be at 3 o'clock. all three of the big pulleys rotate at the same rate. the crank pulley turns twice as fast. Be precise. use a protractor.

[Maqua]

Thanks for the advice, much apreciated! Think this is one of those times when patience is a virtue! I did turn the crank about 180 degrees. Both #1 and #4 are at the bottom. I can't see where the timing marks are on the pulleys until i take off the cover which is not likely to happen until about Friday as work gets in the way! Taking the cover off shouldn't be a problem as apparently it has been off before going by the split in the top of it. Once I get there I will do the measurements and post some more before I get anxious! I wasn't intending on doing much until the new belt and starter arrive, which are on the way! Am hoping this is a free wheeling engine but . . . It is a 124CSI, engine number is 132A1.040.6. Can find listing for 040.5 but not 040.6. I think the .5s were sold in the U.S. and maybe the .6s were sold in Canada???

[maytag]

132A1 indicates a 1756cc motor, but only with help from the Mira archives was I able to find your answer! It's a late 1756cc motor from a noncatalyst car:

see here:
http://archive.mirafiori.com/show.php?fid=2&msg=148921

when you turn the crank 180d, I assume it is turning relatively smoothly? I mean, no obvious scrapes, clunks, etc?

Follow the advice above. I'd also pull the plugs first, to allow for an easier time turning the motor.

[Maqua]

I turned the crank about 180 using a wrench on the alternator. #1 and #4 are at the bottom. Although stiff, it seemed to turn smoothly. The plugs are out and I intend to take the rad out, remove the timing cover and get a better look at where the cams are in regard to timing. Have tried turning it backwards using the alternator, but no go, the alternator belt just slips. Picked up a 38mm socket so we will see how that works!

[maytag]

pay particular attention to where the aux-shaft pulley is oriented. the most common "engine won;t turn" scenario is that the aux shaft is mis-oriented. this will allow the motor to turn til it gets there, and no further.

[Maqua]

Will cetainly be looking at the orientation of the auxilary shaft. Hoping that is the most of it but until I get into the matter, who knows? Have a new starter and new timing belt on the way. They were shipped on Monday. Guess there is no way around it, I am going to have to get my hands dirty! Have been doing a whole lot of reading on this forum, lots of good advice on here. Like I said above, the car coughed out a couple of days after I bought it while my wife was taking it for a ride. It seemed to be running quite well and then it died out. She said she tried a restart and she says it sounded like there was no spark to the engine, ie. it wouldn't fire. She repeated trying to start it a couple of times but no go. When I tried it the starter would only click. The timing belt is in bad condition, seems to be badly worn down with just small ridges left where the "blocks" used to be. I checked with the previous owner and he says the belt was changed about 7000 kms ago. Maybe it was a poorly made belt? Anyway, given the symptoms and the little I know about engines I am putting it down to either the starter has packed up or the timing belt has slipped. Right now I am leaning towards the timing belt being the problem and thinking I should tackle that first? Besides, I am reading that changing the starter is not one of the more pleasant jobs to do!