Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Gotta love that wiring . . .
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Juel72

Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by Juel72 »

Hi fellow 124 fans,

I am new in the 124 world.

Just got myself a 124 Sport Coupe AC from 1969- An project that is 95% ready for the road.

Exceptionally fine car :-)

I am going through the electrical system to make sure everything is OK.

I noticed that there are power almost everything even with the key out of the ignition switch (fan, wipers e.t.c.).
Is that normal ?

My previous classic car was a BMW 2002, it did not do this :-)

Let me know if I have a fault ignition switch, all wires seem to be routed and connected correctly, but I could be wrong.

Best regards
Juel
Denmark, Europe.
User avatar
JEEPER
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:34 pm
Your car is a: 1979 SPIDER
Location: SANDUSKY OHIO

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by JEEPER »

Juel72 wrote:Hi fellow 124 fans,

I am new in the 124 world.

Just got myself a 124 Sport Coupe AC from 1969- An project that is 95% ready for the road.

Exceptionally fine car :-)

I am going through the electrical system to make sure everything is OK.

I noticed that there are power almost everything even with the key out of the ignition switch (fan, wipers e.t.c.).
Is that normal ?
Fan yes because it has to run if the vehicle is hot and you walk away with the key, wipers no, you need to get a wiring diagram because out cars have relays and there may be power on the relay contacts, but not the coil. My advice is try everything and if they work leave them alone.
My previous classic car was a BMW 2002, it did not do this :-)

Let me know if I have a fault ignition switch, all wires seem to be routed and connected correctly, but I could be wrong.

Best regards
Juel
Denmark, Europe.
Juel72

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by Juel72 »

Hi again,

According to earlier posts in this forum, other owners has experienced that wires are hot even with the key out of the ignition lock.

But the post just recently states otherwise.
http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27324

Please explain, thanks.

Are my ignition switch gone ?
User avatar
JEEPER
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:34 pm
Your car is a: 1979 SPIDER
Location: SANDUSKY OHIO

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by JEEPER »

Juel72 wrote:Hi fellow 124 fans,

I am new in the 124 world.

Just got myself a 124 Sport Coupe AC from 1969- An project that is 95% ready for the road.

Exceptionally fine car :-)

I am going through the electrical system to make sure everything is OK.

I noticed that there are power almost everything even with the key out of the ignition switch (fan, wipers e.t.c.).
Is that normal ?
I don't know what happened to my post, but it is normal for power to be on all the time. The fan has power to the thermo switch so that if the fan is running and you park the car the fan will continue to run until the engine cools off after you park and leave it. Your car has several relays so the power will be on the relay contacts(which are normally open) all the time and when the key is on then the coil circuit to these relays can be energized. You need to get a wiring diagram or you will only be guessing.
My previous classic car was a BMW 2002, it did not do this :-)

Let me know if I have a fault ignition switch, all wires seem to be routed and connected correctly, but I could be wrong.

Best regards
Juel
Denmark, Europe.
zachmac
Posts: 1278
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:20 am
Your car is a: 1978 Spider [1979 2 ltr engine]
Location: Aiken, SC

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by zachmac »

Juel72 wrote:Hi again,

According to earlier posts in this forum, other owners has experienced that wires are hot even with the key out of the ignition lock.

But the post just recently states otherwise.
http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27324

Please explain, thanks.

Are my ignition switch gone ?
The ignition switch itself should not be passing any power through to switched components when off with the key out. Note I said when off, some allow the key to be removed in the run position. BUT, that doesn't mean there aren't lots of un-switched circuits in your car. You need to look at a good wiring diagram and you'll see "unswitched circuits"; these are things that always have power and that power doesn't pass through the ignition switch. For example there is always a hot wire at the starter and the back of the alternator / generator and always two hot wires coming into the back of the ignition switch. Some of these branch off and feed other unswitched circuits.
Jeff Klein, Aiken, SC
1980 FI Spider, Veridian with Tan (sold about a year ago), in the market for another project
1989 Spider, sold
2008 Mercedes SL65
2008 S600 Mercedes V12
vandor
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 1:23 pm
Your car is a: 1971 124 Spider
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by vandor »

>The ignition switch itself should not be passing any power through to switched components when off with the key out.

Not correct! On the early 124s, ie the A and B series, both wipers and the heater fan will work with the key out of the ignition. I have no idea why, it does not make sense, but that is how they are. My 70 and 71 Spiders were/are both that way.
I wonder what does NOT work with the ignition off. The ignition, obviously, brake lights, turn signals. Maybe the radiator fan?
Can't think of anything else.
Csaba
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
zachmac
Posts: 1278
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:20 am
Your car is a: 1978 Spider [1979 2 ltr engine]
Location: Aiken, SC

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by zachmac »

vandor wrote:>The ignition switch itself should not be passing any power through to switched components when off with the key out.

Not correct! On the early 124s, ie the A and B series, both wipers and the heater fan will work with the key out of the ignition. I have no idea why, it does not make sense, but that is how they are. My 70 and 71 Spiders were/are both that way.
Csaba,

Pretty sure what I said is correct. As you say, there are items on the car that are powered when there is no key in the ignition and it is off, BUT I am also pretty sure that power is NOT passing THROUGH the ignition switch, ie. no contacts inside the switch are transferring power from one post to another. I could be wrong but that is how all the later cars work. The power to those unswitched circuits like the wipers and heater don't pass "through" the switch. It may come up to a post via one of two wires spliced together but then goes off to the load via the other wire, not through a contact in the switch. Easy to verify one way or another; just unplug all of the wires from the back of the switch and see if the unswitched items still operate (provided the wires aren't soldered which I think the early cars are). If you try this be very careful not to touch the hot leads to anything else!

The other easy way to figure this out is by testing if there is power at any of the fuses in the fuse box with the ignition off (key out). I know again on later cars there are at least two hot all the time. Any loads off of those fuses will operate with the key off / out (ie. they are on an unswitched circuit). There are also sometimes loads coming off the fuse box supply side that have separate fuses inline between the fuse box and the load.

Again, take a good look at Bradley Artigue's excellent wiring diagrams and you'll see all of this. Look particularly at the "black wiring" circuit.
http://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/69_73_COMPLETE.pdf

Based on this you will have power to the following, ignition off / key out:
Front direction indicators, parking lights, and side markers
Engine cooling fan
Alternator
Starter
Engine compartment lamp jam switch
Passenger compartment light jam switches
Emergency flasher button
Windshield wipers
Outer lighting two position switch
Power TO the ignition (two posts)
Heater blower motor
and the luggage compartment lamp

Wow, that's a lot of stuff to try to remember to NOT leave running! Glad I have a later car.
Jeff Klein, Aiken, SC
1980 FI Spider, Veridian with Tan (sold about a year ago), in the market for another project
1989 Spider, sold
2008 Mercedes SL65
2008 S600 Mercedes V12
vandor
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 1:23 pm
Your car is a: 1971 124 Spider
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by vandor »

> I am also pretty sure that power is NOT passing THROUGH the ignition switch,

They do pass through the switch, as the heater fan goes off when the key is turned 90 degrees.
Csaba
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
spider2081
Patron 2024
Patron 2024
Posts: 3015
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:45 pm
Your car is a: 1981 Spider 2000
Location: Wallingford,CT

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by spider2081 »

It's pretty hard to follow and find every wire in a wire diagram that is "hot all the time". I have a 1970 factory wire diagram and there are too many "Hot all the time" paths to practically follow and be sure they are all found. The easiest are everything on Fuse 1and 2. They do not go to the ignition switch, they come directly from the battery + terminal on the starter solenoid. A couple other go to the ignition switch but do not pass through the switch. They just become parallel paths at the switch in the schematic diagram. This could be deceiving because schematic drawings are not physical location drawings.
I am not sure if a car built for the USA would have the same HOT all the time" options as a car built for another country.
So I think one needs the owners manual for the car and needs to operate all the switches etc to see what happens. There are lots of stuff that has power even with ignition off and key out of car.
I think the easiest to cause a problem is the parking lights. It is easy to move the head light switch to the parking position instead of off. Headlights turn off with the ignition switch but parking lights do not.
Juel72

Re: Ingnition switch question - Power always on ?

Post by Juel72 »

Thanks you very much for the answers.

I my 1969 Ac lot of stuff works with the key out of the ignition switch.

Wipers,
Heater fan
lights (at least position)
Turn signals.
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