damaged block!!! :(

[sshanky]

Hi everyone,

I have a '69 124 and finally got it to a great Fiat guy here in town (Phoenix). I had oil leaks and poor running and lots of other issues. He needed to replace the head gasket and when he got to the cylinders he didn't like what he saw -- some rust or other type of corrosion inside one of the cylinders:


Also, but not the main point of this post, the valves were rough:



Now, I'm not sure what to do. My options appear to be:

1. turn the cylinders (2nd bore, .4 mm), buy new pistons & rings
2. buy a new short block for the 1.6 engine, which seems difficult to do and who knows what condition it will be in
3. buy a complete 1.8 engine from a 70's 124

I would love to hear your thoughts, and of course if you happen to have any of these items or know where I might find them, that would be great. I would love to get this car on the road again, but I'm afraid of the costs.

Thanks so much for your thoughts and ideas on this project! Here are a few more pics:

[TimpanogosSlim]

I don't have the years memorized, but if this is the 1608 block, another option is to use the 1608 head on an 1800 block for increased compression. Does require that you have a machinist weld up and re-drill a water channel opening in the head.

Sucks about the cylinder damage.

[Exit98]

Shanky,

Take a deep breath. You'll get back on the road.

From the little we can see in your last picture you have one sweet 69, it looks like its in great shape.

Despite your serious motor issues the fact is the motors are tough as nails and there are plenty of them around. If your motor is original to your car its the 1400 cc one. As much as I like very early Spiders like yours the fact is the 1400 motor doesn't have much grunt. Putting in a later 1600, 1800 or even 2L is a simple process and at least in my VHO won't diminish the value of the car one bit, and will make it much more fun to drive.

Quite a few AZ guys on this board. Maybe one of them has a lead on a block or motor. Craigslist can be your friend too.

[narfire]

If you feel a drive to Summerland BC(just up the road on HWY 97 from Wenatchie WA), is in order ...pull the 1608 from a car I have here, put your intake and exhaust manifolds on and good to go.... You get a screeming deal with the Can. dollar to boot.
Chris

[sshanky]

Thanks everyone. That's awesome!

I was thinking about the power difference too. I found a post that talks about the different engines through the years and their horsepower rating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_124_S ... er#Engines

Years Engine Capacity Bore & Stroke Compression Ratio Output @RPM
67-73 124AC 040 1438 cc 80x71.5 8.9:1 90 PS (66 kW; 89 hp) 6000
73-77 132AC 000 1592 cc 80x79.2 9.8:1 108 PS (79 kW; 107 hp) 6000
70-73 125BC 000 1608 cc 80x80 9.8:1 110 PS (81 kW; 108 hp) 6400
73-77 132AC1 000 1756 cc 84x79.2 9.8:1 118 PS (87 kW; 116 hp) 6000
74-78 132A1 040 1756 cc 84x79.2 8.9:1 118 PS (87 kW; 116 hp) 5800
74-78 131A1 040 1756 cc 84x79.2 8.1:1 87 PS (64 kW; 86 hp) 6200

It wouldn't be bad to have the extra power. Would the drivetrain have any trouble with it? My transmission pops out of reverse quite often and whines but I love the sound of it.

My mechanic said he also has a Lancia engine that would fit but we thought it would not seem original with that marking on the engine.

A road trip up to BC sounds pretty interesting too.

So do you think I should spend the money on boring and pistons, or buy the unknown 1.8 locally for $400 or so?

Thanks guys

[81SPIDERMATT]

bigger faster stronger

would the lancia do that also ... coming from the mechanic himself would carry some weight ... don't know anything about lancia

[narfire]

So do you think I should spend the money on boring and pistons,

Depends what kind of loot you want to spend. Here it is $60.00/ hole plus the cost of the pistons.
I found the best or biggest performance gain in my engine was having the head worked on and a set of after market cams with adjustable cams wheels. Headers and lightened flywheel are an improvement as well.

[sshanky]

This isn't as bad as I'd thought it would be...I still am having problems deciding whether to keep the original engine or get another. But if it's gonna cost 200 or so for the boring and I found these pistons:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fiat-124-Spider ... 4897.l4275

Fiat 124 Spider 1400 1600 Piston Set 80.4mm 1966-73 New for $321

It won't be the end of the world.

Do I get 80.4mm pistons or 80.8?

Now, if I decide to stick with the original engine, should I take this opportunity to go with performance parts to try to improve performance?

[131]

Do I get 80.4mm pistons or 80.8?

The 1608 is a sweet motor, worth doing up just to be different, not many people bother these days, heading straight for the bigger engine. 80.4 gives the block another lease on life in 20 years if you feel like doing it all again, there's not much after 80.8mm. What carbs are you running? Those pistons have a taller dome than what's in the car, upping your compression a bit, if you've got decent carbs it's worth throwing some performance cams in to the mix.

[baltobernie]

Despite your serious motor issues the fact is the motors are tough as nails and there are plenty of them around. If your motor is original to your car its the 1400 cc one. As much as I like very early Spiders like yours the fact is the 1400 motor doesn't have much grunt. Putting in a later 1600, 1800 or even 2L is a simple process and at least in my VHO won't diminish the value of the car one bit, and will make it much more fun to drive.

+1

The "problem" with rebuilding a Spider engine is often "mission creep". Why go to the expense of disassembly, solvent cleaning, miking the crank and boring the block unless you get hi-comp pistons ... and then rebuild the head ... might as well try some hotter cams... and of course you gotta balance it ... why not lightened flywheel, bigger carbs, etc. etc.

Unless you're going to commit to a full engine rebuild, why not plop in a salvage motor and enjoy the car? You can always do a hot build on that motor sometime in the future, if money, time, and desire permit.

[wizard124]

My first question would be is that cylinder going to clean and smooth with a .4mm bore? That corrosion looks pretty deep in the picture.

That outcome could dictate all the choices that follow.

[131]

My first question would be is that cylinder going to clean and smooth with a .4mm bore? That corrosion looks pretty deep in the picture.

That outcome could dictate all the choices that follow.

And is it currently a virgin bore? No use ordering pistons before it's been measured up.

[bradartigue]

Per your question about performance...just boring, ringing, and re-valving that poor thing will bring you a very nice performance boost. I don't think the 1438 is or was a bad motor, it is very fun to drive, it loves high revs, and if you get rid of the DHSA carburetor and put in a 32/36 it just about matches the 1608 in terms of grunt. "Performance" parts be damned, it performed well as stock.

I'd go ahead and change those transmission syncros while you're going broke though. Might as well rebuild the whole powertrain.

[sshanky]

Thanks everyone.

So it sounds like:

1. I have to bore before I know what size pistons to buy
2. Performance parts probably won't add that much value (I haven't been able to find much selection in oversize pistons for the 1400 engine anyway)
3. Consider changing the syncros (any advice on that? Is it a relatively inexpensive thing to do? Is it hard to do later once the engine's back in place?)

Do I need to redo the valves? He told me they seem nice and tight when he tried moving them by hand. However, there is a rusty rough surface on some of them.

Carburetor...There is a Weber with a small square air filter right on top of the carb. He told me that is not the standard configuration and that it was not as good as the original configuration. I suffered with some sluggishness and bogging down when throttling, unless choke pulled. I wonder if that is related.

Do we agree that I should start boring now? Thanks

[TimpanogosSlim]

My first question would be is that cylinder going to clean and smooth with a .4mm bore? That corrosion looks pretty deep in the picture.

That outcome could dictate all the choices that follow.

And is it currently a virgin bore? No use ordering pistons before it's been measured up.

Your thinking here is backwards. Or maybe in-side-out.

The machinist who bores the block has to have the pistons in hand to match the cylinder bore to the pistons.

If you want it done right anyway.

However, it behooves the machinist to do a rough bore first, to determine how much metal HAS to come out. And then you order pistons based on that work, and he shaves off *just enough to fit the pistons with proper clearance.

Also, don't let the shop order pistons and rings or you'll get some sketchy chinese stuff. Seriously.